Forum Discussion
a cheap foot controller for intuitive hands-free movement
Aside from beautiful but costly omni directional threadmills or sliding surfaces, consumer VR needs a cheap and solid device to intuitively and effectively move our avatar character in game while leaving our hands free for hands tracking or motion controllers.
I had started a thread on the mtbs3d forums and some other ideas came from the members, I want to share them also here and start a discussion, in order to find the best approach and maybe help developing a working prototype.
For stand-up play, the basic idea is to place one of your feet over a round controller stick to the ground and simply:
pitch forward/backward to go forward/backward
roll left/right to strafe left/right
freely move around 360° with the help of the free foot, by simply using the controller as a pivot point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXl7BwhIHeg
Rolling the foot might be a problem because of the limited range of movement of the ankle, so a better idea might be to simply move the foot forward/backward and left/right in a strafing mode, just sliding, the way you find in the analog stick of the old PSP (that works by "sliding" the thumb, in opposition to a standard analog stick in which you tilt it).
http://img.ebw.gr/3225/psp_analog_stick_big.jpg
Stand-up play would be the ideal approach because it's intuitive and precise, but it needs a wireless rift, a very hard-to-figure-out positional tracking (the user doesn't even always face the same direction so a camera-based approach would be more complicated), a wireless hydra-like controller or other hands-tracking device, plus it's fatiguing and may pose risks of injury if the user starts feeling dizzy: so for the near future it's maybe best to focus on a seated version.
For seated play, we can use the same basic approach, so tilting forward/backwards and rolling left/right (but better strafing as previously stated), plus there's a third sensor that senses the rotation of the controller, so you can turn your virtual body without turning your real body, by simply rotating the controller up to 45° clockwise or 45° counterclockwise like the yaw movement of the right analog stick of a standard gamepad, so the more you rotate the controller and the faster your avatar spins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz_Ue1amC1Q
Another great approach for seated play, maybe the best in my opinion, suggested by STRZ user from mtbs3d forums, tries to brillantly replicate the keyboard/mouse control system:
you use your left foot like the WASD keys of a keyboard, with a simple strafing device like the one I mentioned before (psp analog stick approach);
you use the right foot like a single axis mouse, and rotate it to the left or to the right to move like a mouse (so 1:1 movements): if you want to continuosly rotate to the left, you rotate your foot to the left, then raise it, reposition to the center (just like raising the mouse to reposition) and then repeat.
STRZ proposed to place the foot over the board of a infinite-rotating disc, so you rotate the foot (with your heel as pivot point) over that disc to spin the character left/right, then raise the foot, reposition to the center and continue.
Under the disc there is a LED that senses the disc rotation, just like the LED under a mouse, so you have a great precision and don't have a disvantage in multiplayer games over standard keyboard/mouse players and maybe you can even have an advantage due to the higher FOV, wider image size, natural 3D perception, natural aiming system (with a hydra-like controller)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G64ruTqEPeI
:mrgreen:
I had started a thread on the mtbs3d forums and some other ideas came from the members, I want to share them also here and start a discussion, in order to find the best approach and maybe help developing a working prototype.
For stand-up play, the basic idea is to place one of your feet over a round controller stick to the ground and simply:
pitch forward/backward to go forward/backward
roll left/right to strafe left/right
freely move around 360° with the help of the free foot, by simply using the controller as a pivot point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXl7BwhIHeg
Rolling the foot might be a problem because of the limited range of movement of the ankle, so a better idea might be to simply move the foot forward/backward and left/right in a strafing mode, just sliding, the way you find in the analog stick of the old PSP (that works by "sliding" the thumb, in opposition to a standard analog stick in which you tilt it).
http://img.ebw.gr/3225/psp_analog_stick_big.jpg
Stand-up play would be the ideal approach because it's intuitive and precise, but it needs a wireless rift, a very hard-to-figure-out positional tracking (the user doesn't even always face the same direction so a camera-based approach would be more complicated), a wireless hydra-like controller or other hands-tracking device, plus it's fatiguing and may pose risks of injury if the user starts feeling dizzy: so for the near future it's maybe best to focus on a seated version.
For seated play, we can use the same basic approach, so tilting forward/backwards and rolling left/right (but better strafing as previously stated), plus there's a third sensor that senses the rotation of the controller, so you can turn your virtual body without turning your real body, by simply rotating the controller up to 45° clockwise or 45° counterclockwise like the yaw movement of the right analog stick of a standard gamepad, so the more you rotate the controller and the faster your avatar spins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz_Ue1amC1Q
Another great approach for seated play, maybe the best in my opinion, suggested by STRZ user from mtbs3d forums, tries to brillantly replicate the keyboard/mouse control system:
you use your left foot like the WASD keys of a keyboard, with a simple strafing device like the one I mentioned before (psp analog stick approach);
you use the right foot like a single axis mouse, and rotate it to the left or to the right to move like a mouse (so 1:1 movements): if you want to continuosly rotate to the left, you rotate your foot to the left, then raise it, reposition to the center (just like raising the mouse to reposition) and then repeat.
STRZ proposed to place the foot over the board of a infinite-rotating disc, so you rotate the foot (with your heel as pivot point) over that disc to spin the character left/right, then raise the foot, reposition to the center and continue.
Under the disc there is a LED that senses the disc rotation, just like the LED under a mouse, so you have a great precision and don't have a disvantage in multiplayer games over standard keyboard/mouse players and maybe you can even have an advantage due to the higher FOV, wider image size, natural 3D perception, natural aiming system (with a hydra-like controller)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G64ruTqEPeI
:mrgreen:
11 Replies
- A pair of oversized dual-shock-style analog sticks and 'tank' controls may also be a viable method of 2D movement for seated play. I've managed to passably play Katamari Damacy (which implements a two-stick movement scheme) using my feet, and doing so was fairly easy to get the hang of.
- Hey Crespo, nice to see you in here and great that you created this thread!
I believe/hope that both developers and gamers are going to realize soon that this type of input is essential in order to have the best VR experience. Things like the new Hydra Tuscany demo already show the potential of being able to use both hands, and I think removing the general avatar movement from those thumbsticks is the next natural step (they could be used to control something much more intuitive like the way your fingers move for instance).
Personally I think the best approach for seated play would be something similar to your last paragraph (the STRZ method), with WASD mapped to the left foot; but instead of using your right foot in a similar way to a laptop touchpad, i would use it in a similar way to a gamepad right analog stick (only left-right): so basically rotate your right foot clockwise to turn your avatar right and counterclockwise to turn left; the more you rotate the faster you turn. I guess this is what edzieba was referring to as well. Obviously we would need some sort of spring or force feedback to return the foot to the default steady position naturally.
The best part is that all this is technically quite simple really, the only problem I see is that even if someone builds and sells some great and cheap standalone foot controller solution, it would be a hard sell for gamers (and developers) to have to buy/rely on 3 different inputs (rift + hydra + foot controller) in order to play VR.
I think the ideal case would be that Oculus released the consumer version of the Rift integrated with both hand and foot controllers, but to deliver an amazing HMD display on its own should be a priority over this. The 2nd best option would be that either Razer released the Hydra 2 + VR foot controller as a package or that Oculus released the consumer Rift + foot controller as a package (without hand controls). This way developers would have to integrate only 2 systems from different companies and costumers would have to buy only 2 "devices" to get a great VR experience. Unfortunately i'm a bit skeptical that this is going to happen anytime soon.. "edzieba" wrote:
A pair of oversized dual-shock-style analog sticks and 'tank' controls may also be a viable method of 2D movement for seated play."PatimPatam" wrote:
Personally I think the best approach for seated play would be something similar to your last paragraph (the STRZ method), with WASD mapped to the left foot; but instead of using your right foot in a similar way to a laptop touchpad, i would use it in a similar way to a gamepad right analog stick (only left-right): so basically rotate your right foot clockwise to turn your avatar right and counterclockwise to turn left; the more you rotate the faster you turn. I guess this is what edzieba was referring to as well. Obviously we would need some sort of spring or force feedback to return the foot to the default steady position naturally.
The WASD movements are the simpler of course, so the real challenge is a convincing turning.
If the goal is to replicate the right thumbstick of a gamepad, I think the simplest and most intuitive method for everyone is to combine WASD and turning in a single unit like the proof of concept I made in the video (and of course there is the need of a proper return spring for turning and for WASD).
Separating WASD and turning IMHO is really a necessity only if we want to replicate the accuracy of a mouse, it's not so intuitive for the casual gamer who may prefer the first approach, but it will feel so good for the PC/hardcore gamer who is used to the keyboard/mouse combo and hates the gamepad approach :mrgreen:
Obviously, one has to try all the possible approaches, in order to find the best"PatimPatam" wrote:
the only problem I see is that even if someone builds and sells some great and cheap standalone foot controller solution, it would be a hard sell for gamers (and developers) to have to buy/rely on 3 different inputs (rift + hydra + foot controller) in order to play VR.
This is not a problem at all, because the allowed movements of this type of foot controller are exactly the same of a standard gamepad! The game will think the inputs come from a gamepad, it's part of the beauty of this approach, as opposite to those methods who rely on a tracking webcam/kinect system that needs specific optimizations.- One of the issues I have noticed with the dev kit demos is that W (walk forward) takes me in the direction I am looking. It feels wrong. Forward should take you in the direction your hips are facing, not your head. I can't look to the side while walking forward in these demos.
I realize that in order to achieve this, there needs to be an IMU on you hips or chair (for seated play). Hopefully Oculus will release the IMU stand alone with a USB interface for us to tinker with. "crespo80" wrote:
The WASD movements are the simpler of course, so the real challenge is a convincing turning.
If the goal is to replicate the right thumbstick of a gamepad, I think the simplest and most intuitive method for everyone is to combine WASD and turning in a single unit like the proof of concept I made in the video (and of course there is the need of a proper return spring for turning and for WASD).
I'm not sure.. i think for the average gamer used to gamepads it would be more intuitive to have the same control scheme but mapped to the feet instead of the thumbs. Also i think having the center of rotation in the middle of a big disc and having to actually translate your feet would be more cumbersome than simply rotating slightly your right foot with the center of rotation at the heel."crespo80" wrote:
Separating WASD and turning IMHO is really a necessity only if we want to replicate the accuracy of a mouse, it's not so intuitive for the casual gamer who may prefer the first approach, but it will feel so good for the PC/hardcore gamer who is used to the keyboard/mouse combo and hates the gamepad approach :mrgreen:
Obviously, one has to try all the possible approaches, in order to find the best
I don't think having mouse-like speed and accuracy is really necessary just for turning your avatar in VR when you can look anywhere you want and point anywhere you want independently. Actually the thumbstick way could be better because you would not have the almost infinite acceleration of a mouse, which would help to avoid motion sickness. As you said i guess i would have to try both to see which one works better.. at the same time i think i wouldn't be too hard to make a foot controller that supported both methods a leave the decision to the user!"crespo80" wrote:
This is not a problem at all, because the allowed movements of this type of foot controller are exactly the same of a standard gamepad! The game will think the inputs come from a gamepad, it's part of the beauty of this approach, as opposite to those methods who rely on a tracking webcam/kinect system that needs specific optimizations.
Yeah probably you're right and i went a bit too far saying it would be a hard sell.. What i meant when i mentioned "the ideal case" is that if the 3 device thing was a whole package then you could take full advantage of it and for instance use the thumbsticks on the hydra for other purposes than moving the avatar. If it's just an optional "replacement" then you couldn't really do that. It would still be a great improvement in immersion though, i believe where are on the same page here. :-)"rmcclelland" wrote:
One of the issues I have noticed with the dev kit demos is that W (walk forward) takes me in the direction I am looking. It feels wrong. Forward should take you in the direction your hips are facing, not your head. I can't look to the side while walking forward in these demos.
I realize that in order to achieve this, there needs to be an IMU on you hips or chair (for seated play). Hopefully Oculus will release the IMU stand alone with a USB interface for us to tinker with.
I think for standing play you are right, we would need a way to track the hips for it to work properly; That's one of the reasons i'm not convinced about standing play in general.. For seated play (on a non-swiveling chair) we don't need an extra tracker because we can control the direction of the hips with other methods (like a foot controller for instance!)"PatimPatam" wrote:
I'm not sure.. i think for the average gamer used to gamepads it would be more intuitive to have the same control scheme but mapped to the feet instead of the thumbs. Also i think having the center of rotation in the middle of a big disc and having to actually translate your feet would be more cumbersome than simply rotating slightly your right foot with the center of rotation at the heel.
I agree, the console/casual gamer may find the dual analog approach more intuitive, but the PC/hardcore gamer will find the keyboard/mouse emulation approach more fitting.
I base my opinion on the two basic control schemes of my razer Hydra: in "mouselook mode" you move the right controller like a mouse and press a button to ratchet (same as raising the mouse to reposition), while in "freelook mode" you move the right controller like the right thumbstick of a gamepad, so the more you move and the faster you spin.
I find the mouselook mode waaaaaaaaay better, I'm definitely a WASD/mouse guy, never liked the gamepad for FPS.
http://youtu.be/NQkATuxo2c8?t=25s"PatimPatam" wrote:
I don't think having mouse-like speed and accuracy is really necessary just for turning your avatar in VR when you can look anywhere you want and point anywhere you want independently. Actually the thumbstick way could be better because you would not have the almost infinite acceleration of a mouse, which would help to avoid motion sickness. As you said i guess i would have to try both to see which one works better.. at the same time i think i wouldn't be too hard to make a foot controller that supported both methods a leave the decision to the user!
Here I disagree, because the main advantage of the mouse is that you can fine control the turning speed and bind it to the movement of your foot: if your foot is stationary, the avatar is stationary, if you move your foot slowly, you avatar moves slowly, if you accelerate, your avatar accelerates at the same pace, so your brain is less prone to be fooled and you're less prone to motion sickness. In "freelook mode", even when your foot is stationary, the avatar can rotate infinitely at various speeds (depending on how much your foot is turned) so there is a disconnection between your foot position/speed and the avatar reactions.
So, in "mouselook mode" if you move your foot quickly the avatar turns quickly, if you turn it slowly he will turn slowly, and you can even adjust the sensitivity to suit your style. Of course, even in "freelok mode" you can adjust the sensitivity, but the "disconnection" problem still remains.
Anyway, as you pointed out, there can be both the styles in the same controller, and any gamer could choose what works best for him!
But it's obvious that the "mouselook mode" is the most competitive one, the most precise, if you want to have a chance against real keyboard/mouse gamers!"PatimPatam" wrote:
For seated play (on a non-swiveling chair) we don't need an extra tracker because we can control the direction of the hips with other methods (like a foot controller for instance!)
Yeah :mrgreen:
I found the first commercial foot controlelr made for gaming, it wil launch on kickstarter soon, but it's basicaly a keyboard WASD key emulator, with no control over turning, kind of disappointing, but it's a first step!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7byoi0r9Tpc"crespo80" wrote:
I found the first commercial foot controlelr made for gaming, it wil launch on kickstarter soon, but it's basicaly a keyboard WASD key emulator, with no control over turning, kind of disappointing, but it's a first step!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7byoi0r9Tpc
Hmm interesting... but even more disappointing is that it's not even analog input, so it would be actually worse than using the left thumbstick of a standard gamepad :-| Like the name though :-)
I hope someone comes up with something better than this (thinking about going for it myself actually.. if only i had more time in my hands!)- One would think that a simple pressure switch pad, one left and one right would be sufficient, give me right foot forward and left foot back... This could be used standing or sitting... and ought to be cheap as hell.
- I like your idea. I wonder if you could emulate that with a Wii balance board
It seems like you could detect turning with one foot forward or something like that. It also wouldn't have the tangled Rift problem. - Even a Wii Balance board would be engineering overkill... This could be simple momentary's on a USB interface mapped to the keyboard.
