Forum Discussion
DK2 "Presence" fades over time for Developers?
Hi all,
I have been facing a small DK2 Developer's dilemma and I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this (or have any insights to offer)?
As you develop your project, do you feel less "immersed"? To be more specific, do you:
1) Notice the SDE pixels more than before? to the point that it takes away from the experience?
2) Start to lose the sense of depth for objects that are not close to you?
3) Not get the appropriate sense of "scale" for large things far away anymore? For example, in the "Great River" demo you pass between the two large statues but it just doesn't feel that "grand".
I did not notice these when I initially used DK1. It got a bit worse with DK2 for me. Sometimes I just have to stop developing my project (or use VR altogether) for weeks before the above effects subdue.
My solutions to above problems so far:
1) Avoid having small objects (due to size or distance) displayed in the center of the screen. Dreadhalls seems to avoid this problem by having dark corridors where the player cannot see far.
2 & 3) Try de-saturating colors for far away pixels (even a slight fog helps). If you want that stereoscopic "feel", use narrow areas or bring some objects very close to the player.
Any thoughts?
I have been facing a small DK2 Developer's dilemma and I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this (or have any insights to offer)?
As you develop your project, do you feel less "immersed"? To be more specific, do you:
1) Notice the SDE pixels more than before? to the point that it takes away from the experience?
2) Start to lose the sense of depth for objects that are not close to you?
3) Not get the appropriate sense of "scale" for large things far away anymore? For example, in the "Great River" demo you pass between the two large statues but it just doesn't feel that "grand".
I did not notice these when I initially used DK1. It got a bit worse with DK2 for me. Sometimes I just have to stop developing my project (or use VR altogether) for weeks before the above effects subdue.
My solutions to above problems so far:
1) Avoid having small objects (due to size or distance) displayed in the center of the screen. Dreadhalls seems to avoid this problem by having dark corridors where the player cannot see far.
2 & 3) Try de-saturating colors for far away pixels (even a slight fog helps). If you want that stereoscopic "feel", use narrow areas or bring some objects very close to the player.
Any thoughts?
17 Replies
- The irony of developing for VR is that it starts to lose its effectiveness. You're just too close to the problem. It's even worse if you are engineering VR. I spend a lot of time in headsets and am personally unable to experience immersion any longer - even with the latest prototypes like Crescent Bay.
"brantlew" wrote:
The irony of developing for VR is that it starts to lose its effectiveness. You're just too close to the problem. It's even worse if you are engineering VR. I spend a lot of time in headsets and am personally unable to experience immersion any longer - even with the latest prototypes like Crescent Bay.
And yet at the same time, going back to non VR apps feels like a let-down after playing in VR.- Concerning points for sure (as a dev). However as the last post said, maybe we do acclimatise to VR and not get 'wowed' so much, but when that happens I feel going back to NON VR gaming feels very flat and unimpressive (depending on the game). Alien Isolation for example, I played it in 2D for 30 minutes at a friend's house and thought "yes it looks nice but I can't seem to 'lock' into the experience.." I was missing that solidity and sense of scale that VR brings after hours spent in it working on my own software! So once the hack was uncovered I grabbed a copy and to me it feels much better in VR (though due to some flaws and not quite ready for prime time I'm discontinuing play until CV1 and perhaps official support as I'd love to experience it in the best VR possible, on a faster system and improved HMD - it's still very cool though). I bought DK2 for dev so I don't mind one bit not playing games until CV1.
So, like HD gaming, like 32 bit gaming and like all tech improvements before - we get used to stuff and they seem less impressive. As VR is just starting out though I don't see it as a problem, it just means over time HMDs will get better, so will the software and the ergonomics/input until the point it feels very natural. Natural tech with WOW software is better than "WOW" tech with crap software, and VR hasn't reached that stage yet. Brantlew has it even worse than most of us but I'm sure if he stopped doing that job, and gave it a few years of improved tech he could feel it again - as we all could. Hope so anyway.
In the meantime the main emphasis should be, as always, on software while the hardware catches up. Make compelling software and you forget about how it's delivered but you will notice when VR is missing from your gaming in future years, I already do feel it. VR opened my eyes now it just has to catch up on the tech/software. :) - I was talking to my friend about this not long ago and mentioned to him the first time I played Doom I got motion sickness and was taken back by the way the character bobbed, it just felt SO REAL! :lol:
I think with VR, it's a similar thing in that your brain just adapts over time. It's a real shame because I've noticed it to and don't even spend that much time in VR currently. - It's just writer's block.
- Wow - hurting my eyes. I haven't experienced any of this and I have them on every day.
If it is true and an oculus developer is saying it, I wouldn't have much optimism about your company's future. "brantlew" wrote:
The irony of developing for VR is that it starts to lose its effectiveness. You're just too close to the problem. It's even worse if you are engineering VR. I spend a lot of time in headsets and am personally unable to experience immersion any longer - even with the latest prototypes like Crescent Bay.
Thanks for sharing that brantlew. It did not occur to me to think about the product engineers and how much more pronounced the problem can be for them! I have few years of experience in the video game industry myself and I remember not playing most games I worked on as I could not "experience" the game as a player would, kind of like a magician not being entertained by his own tricks!
I am curious, did you ever take break or a vacation for few weeks from work that resulted in getting back some of that immersion at least temporarily?"jherico" wrote:
"brantlew" wrote:
The irony of developing for VR is that it starts to lose its effectiveness. You're just too close to the problem. It's even worse if you are engineering VR. I spend a lot of time in headsets and am personally unable to experience immersion any longer - even with the latest prototypes like Crescent Bay.
And yet at the same time, going back to non VR apps feels like a let-down after playing in VR.
Agreed! You don't really know "flat" until you try VR."Sharpfish" wrote:
Concerning points for sure (as a dev). However as the last post said, maybe we do acclimatise to VR and not get 'wowed' so much, but when that happens I feel going back to NON VR gaming feels very flat and unimpressive (depending on the game). Alien Isolation for example, I played it in 2D for 30 minutes at a friend's house and thought "yes it looks nice but I can't seem to 'lock' into the experience.." I was missing that solidity and sense of scale that VR brings after hours spent in it working on my own software! So once the hack was uncovered I grabbed a copy and to me it feels much better in VR (though due to some flaws and not quite ready for prime time I'm discontinuing play until CV1 and perhaps official support as I'd love to experience it in the best VR possible, on a faster system and improved HMD - it's still very cool though). I bought DK2 for dev so I don't mind one bit not playing games until CV1.
So, like HD gaming, like 32 bit gaming and like all tech improvements before - we get used to stuff and they seem less impressive. As VR is just starting out though I don't see it as a problem, it just means over time HMDs will get better, so will the software and the ergonomics/input until the point it feels very natural. Natural tech with WOW software is better than "WOW" tech with crap software, and VR hasn't reached that stage yet. Brantlew has it even worse than most of us but I'm sure if he stopped doing that job, and gave it a few years of improved tech he could feel it again - as we all could. Hope so anyway.
In the meantime the main emphasis should be, as always, on software while the hardware catches up. Make compelling software and you forget about how it's delivered but you will notice when VR is missing from your gaming in future years, I already do feel it. VR opened my eyes now it just has to catch up on the tech/software. :)
I will have to try Alien Isolation, I keep hearing good things about it. :) I also find that taking a break from one's own project to try other games/demos helps a little.
I believe in future of VR, otherwise I wouldn't have purchased DK2 after DK1 and I certainly wouldn't have spent good amount of time & money to start developing my own project. My original point was not to cast doubt on the future of VR (I'll leave that to all the naysayers), but to simply discuss a problem that I was facing as developer, see if others faced it too, and if they tried some solutions to alleviate it.
You make an interesting point about getting used to improvement in gaming (8bit,16bit, 3d, etc) and ever mounting expectations, I guess was not expecting to get "used" to VR that fast! Having said that, the future is bright and I am sure we will see lots of new improvement in both hardware and software to keep it all fresh. :D I personally can't wait for the spacial 3D audio solution, which I believe will give a nice boost to staying immersive.You make an interesting point about getting used to improvement in gaming (8bit,16bit, 3d, etc) and ever mounting expectations, I guess was not expecting to get "used" to VR that fast!
Well maybe it's because at the moment what we see in VR is behind the curve of what we are taking for granted on normal gaming (resolution, full effects, super high frame rate if we want it i.e. BF4 on ultra at over 100fps here). Once VR catches up in hardware and the GPUs are good enough to run it at today's normal gaming levels then we should be on a level playing field. Of course by then normal games will be able to ramp up even higher, maybe a problem that will always face VR. If you only stick to VR though you won't notice that :)
But as of today we've all played such high res stuff that VR currently feels like stepping back a generation or two on the eye candy, but imo is more than worth it - but it does need to get to a certain level to compete. When the flaws stop being so obvious (graphically) we can focus on software (pun intended) more easily instead of seeing pixels. I will be behind VR all the way, I've been getting less and less interested in normal games over the past years so am glad to see some new tech that resets things and we get almost a fresh start (like going from the early 8bits to todays top spec PCS, we are currently in the '8 Bit era' of VR which is better than not at all - and look how fast we progressed with normal gaming)
With performance optimisations and future better HMDs and especially well thought out VR specific software we'll more than likely stop worrying about the wow factor and focus on the games again, then VR will feel indispensable - go back to flat screen gaming, no matter how pretty, and feel totally uninvolved!
