Forum Discussion
No one else using PSMove?
Razer, Kinect, Myo, Wii... but no one considers the PS Move?
I picked one up a few months ago specifically to work with the Rift on my computer.
I chose it in preference to other options for these reasons:
-accurate positional tracking (when within the camera volume and not completely occluded)
-fast response
-no wires
Kinect -- Fantastic idea, best current option for tracking a body, and this will be a technique used heavily in the future -- probably as one facet of a multifaceted solution (like the PS4 cam). But it's too crude and slow for bringing your influence into a virtual world.
Razer -- The best I can figure is that this is worse in most ways than a PS Move in each hand. Tethered, short range, and reports on positional accuracy seem inconsistent.
The key thing I want is a "virtual grip", with low latency and high accuracy. The camera-tracked-globe helps greatly with low latency and positional accuracy. An analog trigger provides an abstraction of grip (not ideal), but it's a reliable mechanical control. The weak point is in orientation tracking, and being out-of-camera. It would be possible to use two cameras (or more), though processing requirements and complexity of sensor-fusion goes up. I'm still not sure what's up with the orientation decalibrating on me... Some games seem to track it fine and others don't. The PSMoveAPI I'm using on the PC seems to suffer more drift than I see from Sony, but I'm still experimenting. The potential seems there, anyhow.
And Myo... no one has one yet, right? It has a cool factor, but I am very skeptical about the reliability and accuracy of finger-actuation. Also, how accurate does it track hand position/orientation in space? It might be fine for doing relative swipes and coarse gestures, but *locating* your hand correctly, so that your virtual hand corresponds to the real one... I have my doubts about it's value here.
There are other like LEAP -- again, great stuff... but relevance to a virtual world? Possibly for an application involving intricate hand work at a table -- no action or large motions; also latency and errors processing the complex data.
I'm no PS Move fanboy. It's gimmicky and not nearly enough... but for a virtual grip it seems better than the other readily available options (with the exception some specific uses!).
I picked one up a few months ago specifically to work with the Rift on my computer.
I chose it in preference to other options for these reasons:
-accurate positional tracking (when within the camera volume and not completely occluded)
-fast response
-no wires
Kinect -- Fantastic idea, best current option for tracking a body, and this will be a technique used heavily in the future -- probably as one facet of a multifaceted solution (like the PS4 cam). But it's too crude and slow for bringing your influence into a virtual world.
Razer -- The best I can figure is that this is worse in most ways than a PS Move in each hand. Tethered, short range, and reports on positional accuracy seem inconsistent.
The key thing I want is a "virtual grip", with low latency and high accuracy. The camera-tracked-globe helps greatly with low latency and positional accuracy. An analog trigger provides an abstraction of grip (not ideal), but it's a reliable mechanical control. The weak point is in orientation tracking, and being out-of-camera. It would be possible to use two cameras (or more), though processing requirements and complexity of sensor-fusion goes up. I'm still not sure what's up with the orientation decalibrating on me... Some games seem to track it fine and others don't. The PSMoveAPI I'm using on the PC seems to suffer more drift than I see from Sony, but I'm still experimenting. The potential seems there, anyhow.
And Myo... no one has one yet, right? It has a cool factor, but I am very skeptical about the reliability and accuracy of finger-actuation. Also, how accurate does it track hand position/orientation in space? It might be fine for doing relative swipes and coarse gestures, but *locating* your hand correctly, so that your virtual hand corresponds to the real one... I have my doubts about it's value here.
There are other like LEAP -- again, great stuff... but relevance to a virtual world? Possibly for an application involving intricate hand work at a table -- no action or large motions; also latency and errors processing the complex data.
I'm no PS Move fanboy. It's gimmicky and not nearly enough... but for a virtual grip it seems better than the other readily available options (with the exception some specific uses!).
31 Replies
- I considered experimenting with them ages ago, (I have huge piles of Wii hardware), but couldn't find any PC drivers or technical information on how to implement a driver for it either.
I've tried a move once, it certainly was accurate from what I can tell. (On paper, it's worse than the hydra. - the positional tracking is 1 mm in the x and y axes relative to the camera, but only 1 cm for depth accuracy.)
Assuming you had drivers for it, I would imagine it would work OK, (although the lack of analog sticks might hurt you unless you have some other means of controlling your movement - I have the same issue with using Wii remotes incedentally)
The drivers are the main reason why I gave up on trying to experiment with the move controllers though.
If that's changed, it might be worth reconsidering though.
I'm just not entirely sure it's as effective as it might seem at first. (oh, and if you want to hear something amusing, I saw a youtube video once of a person who had stuck a glowing orb on the end of a wii remote, then used a webcam to track it.
It had about the same effect as the PS move... XD) - Project Holodeck is using one for the head position tracking, too.
- PSMove api for pc: http://code.google.com/p/moveonpc
Here it is in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euQU6n1OAqI - That's good to know.
I guess I might have to pick one up to add to my collection of motion controllers. XD
Does the Camera the playstation uses work with PC's?
From what I know of it it has a much higher framerate than a typical webcam, so it would be useful to me for several other reasons as well... "KuraIthys" wrote:
I've tried a move once, it certainly was accurate from what I can tell. (On paper, it's worse than the hydra. - the positional tracking is 1 mm in the x and y axes relative to the camera, but only 1 cm for depth accuracy.)
That's just from the camera. It also has inertial sensors and magnetometer. So the camera is essentially able to provide continuous calibration of position (within limited accuracy, as you mention), but the accelerometer allows dead reckoning. "Sensor fusion" is all about the combining of all sensor data to create a more accurate result."KuraIthys" wrote:
(although the lack of analog sticks might hurt you unless you have some other means of controlling your movement)
If you only need one hand (which is how I'm going), you can use the PSNav partnered with a Move (like a nunchuck combo without the wire). Or you can just use any game controller in the off-hand. This is how I'm experimenting -- left hand for "legs"; right handed "virtual grip". Still not sure what to do about turning/torso/alignment, but might try the game-controller's angular sensor."KuraIthys" wrote:
Does the Camera the playstation uses work with PC's?
Yes, it works. Mind you, I'm on Linux. I imagine there's Windows support too.- That's good to know.
I ordered one just now, so we'll see.
Something did occur to me about this issue though;
You asked why the hydra seemed so popular after all. - The Wii actually isn't mentioned that much on the forums here, aside from the balance board, which is a foot controller - and there are very few alternatives to what that allows at the moment, but I just realised why the hydra gets so much attention:
Using a PSmove, Wii hardware, or something similar, while possible, is all in the realms of being a 'hack'. - It works, but it's not what those devices were intended for.
The Razer Hydra on the other hand, is a commercially available product designed specifically for use with a PC...
Which might explain the bias towards it, especially from the people on the board who are aiming to make commercial software...
Anyway, that's a different kind of issue compared to how well any of these devices actually work, which is also important to know about.
Incedentally, for anyone in the UK that hasn't got one yet, there's a new starter bundle on sale here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009OB3I9G
Ignore the game (unless you have a ps3 for some reason); the bundle is ordinarily about £85 but for the moment is £34 (altough slightly cheaper ones seem available too) from Amazon.co.uk.
The bundle includes both a PSEYE camera and one wand controller. (and of course, the game, which isn't relevant for our purposes)
I mention this because the controllers by themselves currently cost £30 new, and the older original starter bundle seems to be £45 at least.
(for reference: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004V2RWV8) - This may become cheaper if the other bundle is no longer on sale. (because the standard price of that bundle appears to be about £85).
So if you want to experiment with these... (And you're in the UK... I have no idea internationally if there are equivalent deals. Sorry. - Though you can of course import from the UK amazon store if you'd like, but the shipping may be prohibitive.) - Well, I just got my Move...
Haven't experimented with the controller yet, but the camera is exactly what I'd hoped.
It's not particularly high resolution (tops out at 640 by 480), but the framerate is 75fps at this resolution.
And, switching to 320 by 240, you can get it to work at 187 fps...
If anyone needs a cheap high-speed camera for something, this is a pretty good bet...
(I may just pick up another one some time soon, while I can still get them relatively cheaply...)
I mean, for optical tracking purposes, the difference between 187 fps, and a typical webcam which can struggle to maintain 30 is pretty dramatic.
Edit: The move controller itself... I'm less impressed with. Although I'm sure the tracking is great, the button layout leaves a lot to be desired as far as I'm concerned, even compared to a Wii remote.
Also, while I'm at it I could say I'm not overly fond of motion control ideas being used in VR that are one-handed. Especially because that's usually right-handed, (and often this can't be changed), which I find especially irritating.
But... Time for a bit of experimenting I guess... XD "KuraIthys" wrote:
I mean, for optical tracking purposes, the difference between 187 fps, and a typical webcam which can struggle to maintain 30 is pretty dramatic.
Absolutely! A lot of motion can happen in 1/30s, and that just complicates matching from frame to frame."KuraIthys" wrote:
Edit: The move controller itself... I'm less impressed with. Although I'm sure the tracking is great, the button layout leaves a lot to be desired as far as I'm concerned, even compared to a Wii remote.
Also, while I'm at it I could say I'm not overly fond of motion control ideas being used in VR that are one-handed. Especially because that's usually right-handed, (and often this can't be changed), which I find especially irritating.
But... Time for a bit of experimenting I guess... XD
I try to avoid handedness assumptions, as well as color-sight. :) Well, I'm glad the camera at least turned out satisfactory. Keep in mind that you can do things like add lights to the corners of the rift to add positional tracking for it via camera.- The camera is great.
The motion controller itself could be OK, but I haven't had much luck with it yet.
It uses a non-standard method of bluetooth pairing, which already threw me off (but I did eventually figure that one out.)
But even when you can get the computer to recognise it... Getting it to sync is nigh on impossible.
The Wii was finicky with bluetooth syncing early on too, but nowhere near as bas as the PS move controller appears to be.
And meanwhile I can sync a Wii remote now with next to no effort, while I have yet to be able to get the move to connect...
I've ordered another bluetooth adapter, to see if that helps...
But these kind of issues show why this is a niche application - the driver support for hacked controllers is just... Not very user-friendly.
That alone may explain a lot about why the Hydra is getting preferential treatment over the alternatives. (since it is a device natively designed for PC...)
Oh, but while I'm on the subject, the Move package I bought includes a harry potter themed game. I can't play it, since I don't have a PS3, but it comes with an additional bit of 'hardware', which consists of a book with 12 thick cardboard pages with patterns on them.
The way it's named implies it wasn't intended as a one-off thing, but it's amusing to look at what they've done...
Because it's obviously designed as a collection of marker images to perform AR tracking...
(I assume the game that it comes with can tell which pages you have open, and overlay graphics onto it...)
It just shows some of the strange things you can do with a camera really...
(But then the 3ds came with a set of cards that used a similar idea. That was pretty amusing to experiment with too...) - Once I paired the PSMove to computer I didn't have any trouble connecting by bluetooth. But with the number of different hardware and software combinations, this doesn't say much.
Oh, that would be the "Book of Spells" game. I was looking at getting that for a niece... you cast spells from the book with your wand. In the edited camera image, your controller is overdrawn to look like a wand, and things will animate out of your book into your living room (in the camera image). :)
Yeah, there's some neat stuff when we start digitizing the world around us... even moreso when we can present an immersive virtual world! ;)
What you say makes sense, as to why the Hydra has all the attention. I guess I was thinking the Rift crowd was much more in the experimental realm without planning for commercial VR products this year. :P I'm thinking longer term. There will be plenty of new input devices, partly from people using the Rift and following their own ideas.
