Forum Discussion
Razer Hydra still best default controller for CV1 launch ?
Let's imagine a single wired improved Razer Hydra as the default 6D controller for a 2015 CV1 launch :
- It's wired to keep the cost down (*edited*).
- It can provide gamepad input on pre-VR games.
- It can provide keyboard/mouse input on pre-VR applications (including mouse input on Windows).
- It leaves your second hand free.
- If wired to the bottom of the CV1 the cable length is no longer an issue.
- With a single cable, no more knots between multiple cables.
- No camera line of sight required.
- No finger tracking required (just need to check buttons, instead of trying to figure out what the fingers are pretending to do).
- Provides a (clumsy) solution to body movement, that bare hand tracking doesn't provide at all.
- Works 360° (by being wired to the CV1).
- You can rest your hands on your knees while moving your VR body (like a gamepad).
- You can switch hands to rest the arm holding it up (for extended sessions).
- It provides basic haptic feedback.
- It can be replaced by a dual high end wireless version with enhanced haptic feedback purchase right away or later (after that becomes more affordable), with the critical assurance that the enhanced version will be supported.
- In short : Works out as both a basic 2D/3D controller, and as a complex 6D gaming controller (for both pre-VR and VR games). The jack of all trades default VR controller of 2015.
It's fine for Oculus VR to go into direct bare hand tracking, eye tracking, voice recognition and whatever else research... for the future, with it's VR dedicated rooms and multiple depth sensing full body tracking cameras.
But for a 2015 release, it makes more sense for Oculus VR to partner with Sixense to develop a more affordable (*edited*) wired starter version of their Sixense wireless STEM system as the default CV1 6D controller, that would benefit both companies (as a starting point to a full and totally supported Sixense wireless STEM purchase), then for Oculus VR to delay CV1 for another year just because bare hand tracking isn't ready for it, and that a default 2D gamepad controller would do more harm then good.
Am I missing the obvious ?
- It's wired to keep the cost down (*edited*).
- It can provide gamepad input on pre-VR games.
- It can provide keyboard/mouse input on pre-VR applications (including mouse input on Windows).
- It leaves your second hand free.
- If wired to the bottom of the CV1 the cable length is no longer an issue.
- With a single cable, no more knots between multiple cables.
- No camera line of sight required.
- No finger tracking required (just need to check buttons, instead of trying to figure out what the fingers are pretending to do).
- Provides a (clumsy) solution to body movement, that bare hand tracking doesn't provide at all.
- Works 360° (by being wired to the CV1).
- You can rest your hands on your knees while moving your VR body (like a gamepad).
- You can switch hands to rest the arm holding it up (for extended sessions).
- It provides basic haptic feedback.
- It can be replaced by a dual high end wireless version with enhanced haptic feedback purchase right away or later (after that becomes more affordable), with the critical assurance that the enhanced version will be supported.
- In short : Works out as both a basic 2D/3D controller, and as a complex 6D gaming controller (for both pre-VR and VR games). The jack of all trades default VR controller of 2015.
It's fine for Oculus VR to go into direct bare hand tracking, eye tracking, voice recognition and whatever else research... for the future, with it's VR dedicated rooms and multiple depth sensing full body tracking cameras.
But for a 2015 release, it makes more sense for Oculus VR to partner with Sixense to develop a more affordable (*edited*) wired starter version of their Sixense wireless STEM system as the default CV1 6D controller, that would benefit both companies (as a starting point to a full and totally supported Sixense wireless STEM purchase), then for Oculus VR to delay CV1 for another year just because bare hand tracking isn't ready for it, and that a default 2D gamepad controller would do more harm then good.
Am I missing the obvious ?
17 Replies
- I agree on all fronts except the wired aspect, it might cut down on cost but adding another wire to the mix is going to make things even messier than it is now even if they run through the rift itself.
Rite now STEM looks like one of the best options out there, though no production units have actually shipped yet so we'll have to wait and see how well it works. If the cost could be cut down this seems like a great option! - I agree for the most part. I do think that STEM will be a VERY popular choice given their usability, and that they will be available soon. However, Oculus is in way to good of a position not to take advantage of having their own input solution, and there's will be designed to work with the Oculus in perhaps a more intimate way. If they come out with one for CV1 Launch then it will be the standard overnight, regardless of other tech out there. The only way to know for sure I guess is just to see how this all unfolds ;) Can't wait!
~B :ugeek: - Nobody is at the point of having a "dirt cheap" solution. It isn't just the wireless that makes STEM expensive in its current form, and "improved Hydra" is what STEM is. Its current design is about rapid iteration using mostly off the shelf components so we can develop as quickly as possible, not mass market scale production. We will get there, but that will be in a future iteration and there are no easy shortcuts.
"owenwp" wrote:
Nobody is at the point of having a "dirt cheap" solution.
Well that's my point, there isn't one (except for a gamepad...).
So if you can come up with a Hydra like solution cheap enough to be included as the default controller in time for CV1, it becomes the best available one by default.
Some issues I had with the Hydra :
Issue 1) The knots.
Issue 2) The drifting.
Issue 3) The screen judder (from my hand movements).
Issue 4) Few games were designed with a Hydra controller in mind (and Hydra wasn't a good replacement for them).
Some solutions :
1) Going wireless.
2) Using external cameras for position tracking.
3) Using head tracking instead of hand tracking to control the camera movements.
4) Make Hydra cheap enough to become the default controller for CV1, so CV1 applications are designed for it by default.
Ideas on making a cheaper basic Hydra controller :
Issue 1) Attach the Hydra to the Headset instead of going wireless.
Issue 2) Use the single DK2 camera, assuming it makes it to CV1, even if that means losing the 360°hand tracking.
Issue 3) Use the Rift.
Issue 4) Cut corners on the tracking quality, the hand tracking doesn't need to be as good as the headset tracking, when it no longer controls the camera movements (make up for the hardware limitations with some software judder correction if needed).
More Issue 4) Also things like ratcheting, strafing, and instant running were there for emulating fast paced games designed to be played with a keyboard and mouse on a Monitor. In VR game design you are better off getting rid of those, so a single thumbstick to rotate left/right and to accelerate/decelerate would be enough to provide body movement, allowing to control the movement and most actions of an Avatar with a single hand, removing the need and cost for a second hand controller for the basic version.
Because if there isn't some kind of Hydra like controller cheap enough to be included in time as the default CV1 controller, STEM will just run into Issue 4 of having most applications designed with another (lesser) CV1 controller in mind, as surely as Hydra did on the PC platform. And Hydra is really at it's best when it's being itself, not when it's trying to emulate something that it's not.- Im my opinion, anything with optical tracking is garbage. I can't wait for my STEMs to get here so I never have to use the DK2's tracking again. I'll just stick a STEM on the top strap and be done with it. So far Hydras have been great for prototyping, aside from tangles. I've never had any problem with drift or jitter, but I know a lot of people do. I think thats the fault of Razer's shoddy construction.
- trying to find a controller and found this thread, what is the best controller to use presently to navigate? Is there a list of options somewhere?
- Guys, I think this could potentially be the best input device if it comes out. If they reach the target goal and the 'Antlers' are available then it would be game-changing.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1384390939/grifta-morphing-gamepad?ref=recommended - Optical tracking is very limited. Unless you have multiple cameras your hands are always going to be occluded from specific angles. This is less of a problem with an HMD because your head is always visible from every angle so you can just cover all sides with LED's but when it comes to hands you'll be in and out of the tracking frustum as soon as you start turning your body.
- I totally agree on the Hydra. It is definitely the best option at the moment and I expect only STEM will be better, but: it is way more expensive and much bigger. The latter is important to me, because I carry my stuff to lots of VR Meetups and packing a Hydra is much easier. (actually I can pack my DK1 + Hydra in the original DK1 case!)
I think I am in a position to say some sensible things on tracking devices. I am developing (and selling) a framework for avatar control supporting a wide range of controllers including Hydra, Kinect and Leap: InstantVR. Hydra is the most smooth solution, is precise (not the same as accurate) has no problem with occlusion and tracks full 6 DOF. The second best solution I have (or will have: it is in the upcoming v3 release) is the combination of HMD mounted Leap Motion and Kinect, where Kinect takes over when leap loses tracking. But it is not as good as Hydra.
Actually: when doing demos I have more problems with people going out of the DK2 camera tracking range than that they have problems with the Hydra tracking...
BTW: the Hydra does not drift. It does get inaccurate at the edge of detection, but a measurement point is always the same for Hydra. If it does seem to drift, then you are drifting yourself, because your base position (e.g. where your feet are) changes. This is a hard problem to tackle in the software. I only solved this in the latest (2.1) release of my software.
But the downside: it is wired. Not that I am annoyed by the wires themselves, but the Hydra controllers fall on the ground a lot because I accidentally pull the wires. Then: the Hydra is not very solid and in combination with dropping on the ground very often, they break down. I already used one Hydra up and I am very very lucky having friend borrowing theirs to me, so I have 2 replacement Hydras, but this should not be happening with a real consumer endproduct. And lastly: the range is not enough, after 75 cm the tracking gets wobbly and distorted. Actually, this is way less than the length of the wires. Why did they make the wires so long?
I definitely think there is a real consumer market for a $75 Hydra v2 with shorter wires, slightly improved tracking range and better build quality. And I think that if Oculus is indeed going for controllerless tracking they will have a hard time beating that solution! - @serrarens
If you say the Hydra accuracy range is only 75 cm, and you can only face forward, then I don't really see the advantages compared to an optical+IMU solution like PS Move.
