Forum Discussion
Should Oculus bundle motion controllers with every Rift?
Hi there!
I've mentioned this a couple times back around September, but now that it's official that Oculus VR is focusing on a seated experience and that external optical tracking looks likely for CV1 i think it's become relevant again..
Also posted a comment on Reddit the other day, just thought i would create a new thread here to see if we can get a bit more feedback.
http://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/1uw0nl/the_next_big_hurdle_for_vr_getting_your_hands_in
Here's a slightly edited version of my reply to the OP:
And here's a very rough sketch i made to have an idea of what i mean. On top of that there should probably be a strap that goes around the back of your hand, so the controller stays in place even with the palm open.
Also optionally there could be a thumbstick instead of the thumb button, but i don't really think it's necessary since i believe avatar movement/rotation could be archived in more intuitive ways, like pressing a button and using positional tracking (lean forward to move forward for instance). Thumbsticks for movement have become quite standard between gamers but i don't think they are that intuitive for the average person.
More on that here:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=18694
Obviously the main technical difficulty with this solution would be how to differentiate controller LEDs from HMD LEDs. The more trivial approach would probably be using a visible spectrum camera instead of infrared and have different colors for each controller but that has it's own set of disadvantages.. anyway i think with the team of computer vision experts at Oculus this should be certainly doable.
I'm also quite certain that a system like this (if used at an optimal distance from the camera) could be much more accurate than alternatives like magnetic tracking (mainly due to the magnetic distortion problem).
At the same time systems like the STEM or PrioVR could still be useful for scenarios where the user wants to move around with more freedom within a confined space, or inside omni threadmills.
I've seen quite a few people complaining about the external camera solution.. Am i the only one INSANELY excited about it?? I believe this could potentially bring us one step closer to the Oasis console.
I honestly think this should be a no-brainer for Oculus, and actually i'm betting they already have some hand-controller internal prototypes; then again maybe i'm wrong :-)
Thoughts?
EDIT:
Like i mentioned later in this thread, if occlusion is too troublesome to sort out with only the existing front camera, a 2nd inside-out camera with a wide FOV could be used on the headset to help track the controllers. If the HMD is blocked by the controllers, the relative position between the external camera and the HMD could be calculated integrating the relative position between camera and controllers and the relative position between controllers and HMD.
Maybe this inside-out camera could be used at the same time for pass-through functionality similar to Gear VR. Obviously this would add both weight and cost to the HMD, but i don't see it as a show-stopper.
I've mentioned this a couple times back around September, but now that it's official that Oculus VR is focusing on a seated experience and that external optical tracking looks likely for CV1 i think it's become relevant again..
Also posted a comment on Reddit the other day, just thought i would create a new thread here to see if we can get a bit more feedback.
http://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/1uw0nl/the_next_big_hurdle_for_vr_getting_your_hands_in
Here's a slightly edited version of my reply to the OP:
"PatimPatam" wrote:
Basically, i believe that the company in the best position to put our hands inside the game is actually Oculus VR itself.
I would love to have an affordable haptic feedback glove, but for the 1st generation of consumer VR i don't think we really need one; a motion controller similar to the PS-Move but where each finger rests in a separate analog button (with optional force feedback) should be enough to simulate our hands. For instance I can imagine it having the shape of a prism or a dumbbell, with several LEDs on both ends.
Having already an external camera for positional tracking this type of controller should be very cheap to produce for Oculus (basically just plastic, a few LEDs, a bluetooth transmitter, and one of the awesome IMUs they already developed to use inside the headset).
I think Oculus could perfectly bundle 2 of these controllers with every Rift sold, without adding more than $40 or $50 to the final price.
I know it may not sound like super-exciting high-tech at first, but the fact that EVERY Rift user would have the same VR input would make a MASSIVE difference. Developers could create VR games and applications with very intuitive interfaces from day 1 knowing that there is a standard input shared by all users.
And here's a very rough sketch i made to have an idea of what i mean. On top of that there should probably be a strap that goes around the back of your hand, so the controller stays in place even with the palm open.
Also optionally there could be a thumbstick instead of the thumb button, but i don't really think it's necessary since i believe avatar movement/rotation could be archived in more intuitive ways, like pressing a button and using positional tracking (lean forward to move forward for instance). Thumbsticks for movement have become quite standard between gamers but i don't think they are that intuitive for the average person.
More on that here:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=18694
Obviously the main technical difficulty with this solution would be how to differentiate controller LEDs from HMD LEDs. The more trivial approach would probably be using a visible spectrum camera instead of infrared and have different colors for each controller but that has it's own set of disadvantages.. anyway i think with the team of computer vision experts at Oculus this should be certainly doable.
I'm also quite certain that a system like this (if used at an optimal distance from the camera) could be much more accurate than alternatives like magnetic tracking (mainly due to the magnetic distortion problem).
At the same time systems like the STEM or PrioVR could still be useful for scenarios where the user wants to move around with more freedom within a confined space, or inside omni threadmills.
I've seen quite a few people complaining about the external camera solution.. Am i the only one INSANELY excited about it?? I believe this could potentially bring us one step closer to the Oasis console.
I honestly think this should be a no-brainer for Oculus, and actually i'm betting they already have some hand-controller internal prototypes; then again maybe i'm wrong :-)
Thoughts?
EDIT:
Like i mentioned later in this thread, if occlusion is too troublesome to sort out with only the existing front camera, a 2nd inside-out camera with a wide FOV could be used on the headset to help track the controllers. If the HMD is blocked by the controllers, the relative position between the external camera and the HMD could be calculated integrating the relative position between camera and controllers and the relative position between controllers and HMD.
Maybe this inside-out camera could be used at the same time for pass-through functionality similar to Gear VR. Obviously this would add both weight and cost to the HMD, but i don't see it as a show-stopper.
132 Replies
- wow, nice new idea. Like it.
Yeah, possibly they have a optically tracked glove system in the lane. - The infrared spectrum is quite wide enough for leds of different 'colours' within infrared to be used to discriminate head from hands.
However, given that I have invested in a Stem controller, I guess I would prefer that they continue to focus on the HMD and leave peripherals to third party players. Putting led markers on the Stem devices would be nice but I suspect it is too far along in its development for that.
If there has to be a standard - it would be better as a 'led-ed' 3/4-finger gloves (i.e. covering up to the joint before the finger tip) as a standard (as these would leave the hands unencumbered and allow capture of natural gesturing and movement). The pro- version could have haptic feedback of some sort built in. As tech such as leap motion moves on, the gloves could become superfluous. Needing a physical controller in the hand is so last year. - I'd prefer to see them stay focused on the HMD.
I don't see any problem with them partnering with various companies to sell packs for input and tracking setups. Some further info for the various setups that details which games will make the most of it would help the average person get a better VR experience in all probability.
Currently they do HMDs the best, others do their own forms of inputs and devices better. The more people play to their strengths the quicker this market will evolve and expand. "Felix12g" wrote:
Currently they do HMDs the best, others do their own forms of inputs and devices better. The more people play to their strengths the quicker this market will evolve and expand.
Palmer has already stated that their optical system has better accuracy than the STEM, and from both my technical knowledge about optical systems and my experience with magnetic ones i believe that it's true.
Hmmm ok i must say i'm a bit disheartened with the replies (but kind of expected it too)..
First of all the interesting thing about a system similar to this is that Oculus could leverage their current technology stack, and also their industry contacts; the biggest amout of work would probably be updating the SDK.
I see the most potential in consumer VR as a package of HMD AND Motion Controls. Every single person that tries the Rift immediately mentions "so where are my hands?", ESPECIALLY the not technically oriented.
Do you honestly believe a $300 HMD where you have to buy a separate $200 controller would be better than a $340 system with everything you need included AND more accurate than the separate system?
Imagine a game like "The Gallery" for instance, it launches at the same time as Oculus and receives mixed reviews because you "only get a true next gen experience if your play with motion controls". How many other developers would be encouraged to make revolutionary experiences, exclusive for VR motion controllers?
With a $300 headset that requires another $200 periferal to make the most of it, Oculus could indeed disrupt the gaming industry and make a dent in many others.
With a $340 complete VR system right out the box, Oculus could take the world by storm.
Can't we see the big picture here?- I'm curious how bad the IR LED tracking for a controller would get bugged up when your body blocks the cameras view of the controller. I notice the Crystral Coves LEDs are uniquely laid out from every angle with a single line of symmetry down the center. So, I assume a controller would need to avoid conflicting LED patterns as to not be confused for the headset or itself in a different orientation.
I am curious why people think magnetometers aren't accurate enough. Isn't the Razer hydra just 2 magnetometers and a EM field generator? Or is each controller a full IMU?
If Razer started manufacturing the Hydra again for the original $149 price I would be so happy. - https://www.google.com/search?q=omni+treadmill+oculus+rift&oq=omni+treadmill+oculus+rift&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.4826j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8
i'm for the seated, but using treadmills could be good.. keep you all safer from my swords :) - Would love to have hand tracking together with the oculus.
Something like the leap motion controller strapped to the rift, so I can see my hands with fully articulated fingers.
Two wide angle camera attached to the oculus would also enable to see the real world.
Potentially this would be awesome for "mobile" gaming when using android / mobile devices. - Oh dear, i feel like i'm not explaining myself clearly enough.. maybe my English is not as good as i thought (it's actually my 3rd language).
This thread is NOT about optical VS magnetic tracking, gloves VS controllers, seated VS standing, or even about my wacky controller idea. This thread is about a cheap unified platform VS a segregated (and more expensive) one.
I think telling the user that in order to get a good VR experience they need to buy a decent PC or STEAM Machine, and then buy a $300 HMD is already pushing it. If they have to buy expensive motion controls on top of that then the market gets thin really fast.
Even if retailers make some VR bundles with everything you need included that's not really good enough, because it doesn't guarantee that all Rift users will have a STEM or that all STEM users will have a Rift; it will be a really hard marketing decision for game companies to make games that take advantage of both at the same time.
Well, not going to push it anymore.. I guess half the users here have already invested in Sixense and don't want to admit that maybe they made the call a bit too early..
Then again, maybe i'm too optimistic with the feasibility of producing a cheap enough optical controller; or maybe it is possible but it's too late at this stage to make such a big change in the SDK and to modify launch games already in development by other software companies..
Anyway, i'm still hoping that Oculus is going to take this route for CV1, because otherwise we would all be missing a BIG opportunity.
I guess time will tell. :-P - For the sake of comfort two simple one hand controller(wire/wireless) would be a good start for a bundle.
Having the hands forced to grab a controller isn' relaxing.
For a seated VR experience you want to relax on an armchair.
Maybe we'll see some gloves bundled. Palmer mentioned in HipHipgamer interview that they have a few asses in their sleeves. :D - I approve of this concept!
If an optical tracking system is the best solution for head tracking then surely it's the same for our hands.
