Forum Discussion
Vision Lenses
Ok, by far I am termed an end user. I know jack squat about software programming or such, but I have done more than my share of beta testing and firmware hardware testing in my 50 plus years of life to have learned a few things.
I am also a 100% Disabled VFW medically retired and living in Germany, so see things a bit differently from a lot of gamers today.
I have been looking at all of the various videos and other aspects of the Oculus that is available which I can understand.
So a few thoughts from myself for what it is worth.
1) Lenses, IF you can create a set of removable lens fit caps which could then be taken to an optometrist and have prescription lenses cut and fitted into them, this would be wonderful for us glass wearing people.
If you take a look at most glasses today you can see the lenses are basically held in using a wire frame / Screw set up. This allows for the lenses to be removed and new ones placed into the frames as glass magnification adjustments need to be made.
I see you have an A / B / C type set of lenses and this is good for most average individuals needs. I for one if I am going to spend the cash for a VR unit I want the best optimal vision possible. Since in most cases it is the frames that cost an arm and leg when getting glasses, to have a set of inserts for the Oculus that can have prescription lenses fit to them and changed when new ones are needed would be a god sent.
2) As for the problem with the use of keyboard: I have permanent 20+% nerve damage at the brain stem, due to this I have no touch sensation in my hands anymore. If I can not see myself hitting a key then I will not know it. To overcome this I have been looking at different forms of touch board designs. The current best solution I have come up with to date is using a 2 button track ball with my right hand. One where the ball is top center with VERY LARGE Buttons to the left and right. Since my hand does not move from this platform when gaming I usually have no problems unless at times the hand gets wrong signals and either does not push a button OR often does not release the button when it is pushed down.
BUT for now that is the best method I have found for the right hand.
NOW as for the left with a VR set over my eyes I had worries on this issue of being unable to see my hand hit keys. that is until I found a little gadget recently which I am ordering ASAP to give it a try. This is the Peregrine Glove. It operates like a touch pad but is a glove with sensors on the fingers and palm sections.
So, once programmed I would not need to see if my finger is on the right button when punching it solving this no eyesight to the keyboard or touchpad problem. If anyone knows of similar devices perhaps it is time to start a list of such so research and feedback on how effective they work with Oculus can be posted.
3) My main concern with the Oculus device is weight. Since I have extensive damage of the neck and skull base regions any weight can be a problem. So I am waiting for the final product release before buying a set. Which begs the question. IF you buy a prototype, do you return this for a finished design product or do you have to buy a new set completely?
I am building a totally new machine to start with Star Citizen and am set for an Alpha testing slot. SO, IF the full developed version is not out by say oh December this year when I hope to have the system fully ready it then would require me to get a prototype set. Yet as a medically retired VFW individual, my budget is VERY limited so of course like anyone I want to be able to maximize the money spent to its fullest potential possible.
SO, is a final consumer device planned for release before end of 2013 OR how does one acquire a prototype set and if such is purchased, once a full consumer set is released how will that be handled financially?
Thanks for the time, effort and work.
Avalean
US Army Med. Ret. VFW
I am also a 100% Disabled VFW medically retired and living in Germany, so see things a bit differently from a lot of gamers today.
I have been looking at all of the various videos and other aspects of the Oculus that is available which I can understand.
So a few thoughts from myself for what it is worth.
1) Lenses, IF you can create a set of removable lens fit caps which could then be taken to an optometrist and have prescription lenses cut and fitted into them, this would be wonderful for us glass wearing people.
If you take a look at most glasses today you can see the lenses are basically held in using a wire frame / Screw set up. This allows for the lenses to be removed and new ones placed into the frames as glass magnification adjustments need to be made.
I see you have an A / B / C type set of lenses and this is good for most average individuals needs. I for one if I am going to spend the cash for a VR unit I want the best optimal vision possible. Since in most cases it is the frames that cost an arm and leg when getting glasses, to have a set of inserts for the Oculus that can have prescription lenses fit to them and changed when new ones are needed would be a god sent.
2) As for the problem with the use of keyboard: I have permanent 20+% nerve damage at the brain stem, due to this I have no touch sensation in my hands anymore. If I can not see myself hitting a key then I will not know it. To overcome this I have been looking at different forms of touch board designs. The current best solution I have come up with to date is using a 2 button track ball with my right hand. One where the ball is top center with VERY LARGE Buttons to the left and right. Since my hand does not move from this platform when gaming I usually have no problems unless at times the hand gets wrong signals and either does not push a button OR often does not release the button when it is pushed down.
BUT for now that is the best method I have found for the right hand.
NOW as for the left with a VR set over my eyes I had worries on this issue of being unable to see my hand hit keys. that is until I found a little gadget recently which I am ordering ASAP to give it a try. This is the Peregrine Glove. It operates like a touch pad but is a glove with sensors on the fingers and palm sections.
So, once programmed I would not need to see if my finger is on the right button when punching it solving this no eyesight to the keyboard or touchpad problem. If anyone knows of similar devices perhaps it is time to start a list of such so research and feedback on how effective they work with Oculus can be posted.
3) My main concern with the Oculus device is weight. Since I have extensive damage of the neck and skull base regions any weight can be a problem. So I am waiting for the final product release before buying a set. Which begs the question. IF you buy a prototype, do you return this for a finished design product or do you have to buy a new set completely?
I am building a totally new machine to start with Star Citizen and am set for an Alpha testing slot. SO, IF the full developed version is not out by say oh December this year when I hope to have the system fully ready it then would require me to get a prototype set. Yet as a medically retired VFW individual, my budget is VERY limited so of course like anyone I want to be able to maximize the money spent to its fullest potential possible.
SO, is a final consumer device planned for release before end of 2013 OR how does one acquire a prototype set and if such is purchased, once a full consumer set is released how will that be handled financially?
Thanks for the time, effort and work.
Avalean
US Army Med. Ret. VFW
14 Replies
- Humm I see a lot of postings with similar questions and no replies to these at all. Does anyone from the company actually read any of this perhaps?
Maybe a sticky to a specific local that gives the current info on consumer release date objectives and if the 1080p HD set is ready for shipping as a basic model yet.
Maybe there is such a link already but to date I have been unable to find any.
Avalean - For information on where to get high magnification prescription lenses, see this post:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1050#p11511
Different optics may require different pre-warp distortion.
Adjustable focus lenses may also be an option:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=17900 "Avalean" wrote:
SO, is a final consumer device planned for release before end of 2013 OR how does one acquire a prototype set and if such is purchased, once a full consumer set is released how will that be handled financially?
Thanks for the time, effort and work.
Avalean
US Army Med. Ret. VFW
the idea with current kits its that software developers could have a tool to work with VR, pretty much like consoles do before releasing or even showing next gen stuff. So no plans for returning devkits.
As for release, and this is all based on guesses and personal opinions, but I would say Q2/Q3 2014
As for the weight, its 380 grs, and Oculus its trying to make cons ver even lighter, I hope that kind of weight would be OK for your neck- Thanks for the replies and information. Is the current Dev prototyype kits low or now sent with Hi Res capacity at this time?
Also the link for the lenses was nice yet missed the two main points I had hoped to convey. Perhaps I did not state things properly in my first post.
As for Lenses; it was a two part concept.
1) Since hopefully this product will be eventually used for people world wide we must consider that there are people like myself "Currently in Germany" who can not simply walk over to a local state side store or in fact with what eyesight I do have left I would not leave it to the tender care of some over the counter mail order prescription method. I do have a regular individual my wife and I have used for over 15 years, Finding someone to create the lenses was not the problem.
Actually due to my injuries in the military and the condition of my current eyesight as well, I can not wear contacts and require very specialized prescribed and fitted lenses Also. As such, the suggestion in the provided link above would not be usable suggestion for myself. Nor I believe for many, an viable solution. Which brings us to point two.
2) The idea was due to the points listed in One above that a fitting set of inserts be manufactured for the Oculus as part of the final kit but would contain no lenses what so ever. So, i this way, Instead of having lenses already in them, the lens housing would be constructed more like modern wire frame eye glasses. An individual could take this pair of insets to their local optometrist with their needed specific prescription for eye wear needs, then have the individual there form and fit the lenses into the inserts. A simple at that point, grind the lenses, cut them to size, and like wire frame glasses which allows the lenses to be held via the frame and a screw retainer, fit them to place.
In this way as the individuals sight changes as it dose for the majority of us. The person simply has a new set of lenses created and reset into the inserts as required when having a new set of glasses created. This could be either simply a part of the kit proper or an elective choice for an extra fee, "OR" an either or option (Normal Inserts or Special insert housing with no lenses.
Since there are many families in the world where some members need glasses, some wear contacts, and some have good vision, I am sure that even if it was simply included as part of the Kit at sale, that at some point in time they would be put to use by the majority of the purchasing customers, even if it was for a regular family friend who came to visit time to time.
I hope I have now worded this in a more understandable fashion. I am sorry for the misunderstanding before. "Avalean" wrote:
... Is the current Dev prototype kits low or now sent with Hi Res capacity at this time? ...
individual there form and fit the lenses into the inserts. A simple at that point, grind the lenses, cut them to size, and like wire frame glasses which allows the lenses to be held via the frame and a screw retainer, fit them to place. ...
The current Dev Kits use 1280x800 resolution displays. There are no plans for a 1080p Dev Kit at this time, other than prototype units to demonstrate technology that may be used in the consumer Rift models. 1280x800 resolution is sufficient for Rift app development, which is the intended purpose for these Dev Kits.
Most modern lenses are plastic, and the lens blanks have the prescription molded into them, and they are typically coated with a hard protective film immediately after cooling. Optical shops near me in the USA select a round lens blank with appropriate diopter and astigmatism magnitude, then orient that in the CNC lens griding machine oriented for your prescription, then select an eyeglass rim shape from a menu (based on eyeglass frame style). The machine does the rest. I purchased a pair of eyeglasses in a eastern European country, where they hand-ground the lens blanks to fit the frames, and they were a very poor fit.
Even tempered glass lenses come in a wide variety of prescriptions. You cannot cut or drill tempered glass, so they can only be ground to fit the frames. You cannot change the prescription of these lenses after they have been tempered (fired in a tempering oven until the glass glows, and quench cooled at a specific rate, to harden them).
The CNC lens grinders I have worked with typically do support manual over-ride, but the operators have no idea how to use that feature. The lens prescription is not changed after it leaves the factory. There are specialty lens shops that CAN grind custom lenses (typically used in expensive specialty optical instruments), however they are typically very expensive and may be difficult to find.
There may also be eyeglass shops that have the tools and experience to grind custom lenses, but I no experience with them. Most optical shops around here are of the lower-skill variety I described above.- Well like in our case I could take a pair of frames to my Opt. give them the set prescription, they would then grind the lenses to the prescription, then shape them to fit the selected frames. that was the basic idea. So if there was a "Blank" insert set with the ability to inset a precut and shaped lens then as with normal wire frame style glasses, it had a small screw on one side of the lens holder to tighten the lens into place, one could then have direct prescription lenses created and fit to the inserts for each eye specifications. Later when the specs changed, the lenses could be removed and new ones for the new prescription once again ground and cut to shape to fit the frame setting.
I have been using the same set of frames for 8 years now and had the lenses changed in them about once every 1 to 2 years. So by direct expereance I know it would work and is a viable and low cost way of catering to those of us who have no choice but to wear glasses and need special lenses for things to look proper for us. Sorry to be the odd ball in the crown, but I am sure I am not the only one with this type of problem when it comes to wearing 3D goggles, Party Mask and of course the set ups like Oculus as well.
Just trying to find a reason to give you guys my money is all, "Wink" "Avalean" wrote:
... give them the set prescription, they would then grind the lenses to the prescription, then shape them to fit the selected frames. ...
You must have an "old school" optical shop then. Around here, almost everything is prefabricated, with minimum operator skill required. That is the way of the future for many jobs. Advanced education pricing is growing beyond affordability for far too many people these days, and employers need to automate the higher skill requirements as much as possible to compensate for that.
But in your case, with the ability to get (hopefully affordable) custom ground prescription lenses, that gives you more options. For the rest of us, we could just get standard prescription eyeglass lenses ground down to 1.5-in and stack above the regular Rift lenses (flipped over to fit the Rift lens curvature and rotated for astigmatism orientation).- Umm ?? sure what he said?? LOL
Sorry my brother is the one with the masters degree in glasses and such. I went the geek and military format.
But if you overlayed the lenses on the current lenses how would you be able to first hold them in place AND in the right rotation with out them then poking you in the eyes as well? Just figured since when people select new glass frames, they send the frames to the grinder to be processed, they have to fit the lenses to the frames by shaping them in some fashion anyway. SO if you instead gave them the prescription for the lenses AND the inserts so they could cut the lenses to fit the inserts there should not be much of a problem.
I know my frames look nothing like the new style frames so someone somewhere along the line of production has to shape the lenses to fit whatever the frame set is that goes with them. !I keep 2 pairs so always have a back up set and so this way I can send one pair in have them done, then when I get the new set I send in pair two for the same purpose". The company we use is Fielmann a regular group found all over Germany at least.
So anyway again this is just an idea, as I said IF the inserts for such is created AND the individual buying the set has the option for an extra fee to get a pair it would be a VERY nice option in my mind. IF for whatever reason they do not need them OR can not have lenses created for them, then they simply say no to the extra inserts and bypass the cost for them.
NOW AS FOR DEVELOPMENT PURPOSES:
IF someone could send me a basic insert set to tinker with I could look at them, see what could be possibly be done with the current style, then send them back for physical review when I am done chopping them up, blending them, and reprocessing them back together with superglue 8-).
Anyone with that level of decision can reach me at my email address: originalduyahoo.com for further discussions. I will be leaving this week for vacation so will be out of the loop for two too three weeks. But will try to check my emails every few days as well via mobile device IF I can get a signal as I will be "AWAY" from civilization most of that time. "Avalean" wrote:
Umm ?? sure what he said?? LOL
Sorry my brother is the one with the masters degree in glasses and such. I went the geek and military format.
But if you overlayed the lenses on the current lenses how would you be able to first hold them in place AND in the right rotation with out them then poking you in the eyes as well? Just figured since when people select new glass frames, they send the frames to the grinder to be processed, they have to fit the lenses to the frames by shaping them in some fashion anyway. SO if you instead gave them the prescription for the lenses AND the inserts so they could cut the lenses to fit the inserts there should not be much of a problem.
Sure what who said? LOL? Are we miscommunicating? I though I explained my suggestion clear enough, but apparently not. Here are more details:
The Rift needs an high magnification aspheric lens to create the designed-in distortion that dedicates more pixel density to the center.
Eyeglass lenses are meniscus lenses (concave back surface) with different optical properties than what we need, so you cannot use ordinary eyeglass lens blanks. Grinding a composite prescription/aspheric lens would require starting from a thicker disk of optical material.
It is more customary in optical devices to use a compound lens made of a stack of multiple lens elements. The Rift could use such a compound lens, consisting of its existing lens, with a NORMAL prescription meniscus eyeglass lens mounted against it. You could make a snap-on ring containing the meniscus lens (cut down to about 1.5-inch diameter). It could use a friction mount or magnetic mount.
Flipping your eyeglasses over and viewing through then does a pretty good job, so you could put the concave side against the Rift lens to get them closer together and to keep sharp lens edges away from your eyes. You can try this already with lenses from old eyeglasses, placing them concave side against the Rift lenses, and upside down to not swap eyes. I tried that awhile ago and it worked quite well. You may need to adjust the "coin slot" adjustments on your Rift to make room for the lenses, but much better than wearing full eyeglasses in the Rift.
The existing Rift lenses are held in place with snap-in retainer clips. Those clips are glued in with a small drop of glue, or glued the entire circumference, depending on the lens eyecup and who assembled it. I have not tried, but I hope that glue can be snapped loose easily. If you want to be able to reuse your eyecup, I suggest NOT using superglue (cyanoacrylate adhesive). And be careful to keep glue off the lenses too.
EDIT: Flipping eyeglass lenses over as I suggested (on horizontal axis) would not work well for bifocals, trifocals, or gradient lenses. You would not want those anyway, because the Rift uses a fixed focal length. Flipping lenses can change astigmatism correction orientation, so you may need to rotate the lens to correct for this. In my case, I did not need additional rotation.- SO what if under those conditions they were to say make a secondary attachment for the overlay lens that we could then take this to the optomitrist with the lens prescription, have them grind the lens to the needed prescription and shape to fit this extra lens holder that is form fitted to be placed and held onto the normal insert glass area?
So in effect you could place in the normal none magnified glass for the inserts then have a small guaged metal ring which is held closed by a side screw like in normal glasses that snaps onto and over the glass lenses of the insert.
Sort of a ring that holds the prescription lens that snaps and is held over and close to the first ring that holds the normal glass lenses on the inserts required for the 3D optics as I understand it. Perhaps to compensate for the extra space used a small extra sticky padding could them´n be applied around the edge of the mask to compensate for the space used up by the additional lens inserts and rings.
I make no bones to the fact that I am a hands on visual type person, but this is actually an on going thread in the Star Citizen forums right now even.
Again I am just tossing ideas out here to the folks who deal with this hands on i the hopes of finding a workable solution so that more people can enjoy the oculus system in games to come.
