Hello there!Ok this was posted over the MTBS General Discussion forums but has been largely ignored, so i thought it may have better luck in here.It appears that Sony tried to patent this idea back in 2007 and then again in 2011:http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/13250/Sony-Patents-WiimoteKiller-Game-Controllerhttp://www.google.com/patents/US20110269544However I had a quick look to check the patent status and found that it was registered as ABANDONED on 01-02-2013!http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair(Select "Publication Number" and enter 20110269544)So i'm guessing anyone is free to build/sell something similar if they want to..This design from Sony looks much more compelling to me than the typical outside-in haptic glove (ala P5 or CyberGrasp), both from a usability and from a complexity/price standpoint.Cheap materials could be used to sense mechanical flexing:http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0049365And i think it's not mentioned on the patent application itself but this solution would obviously be even better if each finger protrusion contained variable stiffness springs or smart materials, in order to provide passive haptic feedback. Combined with rumble and proper wireless magnetic tracking (like an improved version of a Razer Hydra) i believe this could be the PERFECT VR input device.I understand that tension is supposed to keep the device in position but if i was going to build it i think i would add some sort of elastic band that goes around your hand and holds the central part in place, with the rumble motor inside this central body. The magnetic receivers could be inside a small casing, attached on the outside part of the elastic band for instance (on the back side of your hand).If Oculus is looking to implement their own hand tracking device to go with the Rift (as it has been hinted a few times) i think this could be a great starting point..Any thoughts??

"Power Gloves" seem inevitable, and I would love to get my hands on/in them, but I do wonder how you reconcile movement (for example the Hydras have Twin Sticks).

Since you're using tools or holding things in most games, the haptics and finger tracking aren't really all that needed right now. For full simulations or other more freeform setups where you're interacting with the environment with your hands much more, it will be important.I looked around at options for glove systems and hand tracking, and barring wearinga set of pinch style gloves for added inputs at your finger tips in addition to the Hydra, I'm not personally going to look at gloves right now. That's just my take on it at present.While gloves themselves might not be useful across the board just yet, I'm interested in wrist mounted controls that you can duplicate with ingame models for the illusion and sense you're reaching down to interact with the display. Think a Lynx computer http://liquivision.com/lynx-omniscient-system.php

"xanderdavis" wrote:"Power Gloves" seem inevitable, and I would love to get my hands on/in them, but I do wonder how you reconcile movement (for example the Hydras have Twin Sticks).A light-weight, easy to put on / take off pair of gloves with a laser mouse system built into the palm would be the way to go I reckon. They'd ideally have sensors on the finger tips so you could tap on your desk and emulate typing into a keyboard (of which a virtual model would show on screen) when needed. Been thinking about building a prototype but my electronics skills are below amateur! Can I patent this idea?!Check these out for ideas of what I mean:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTZEHObmB0Mhttp://www.gizmag.com/airmouse-wearable-mouse/13993/"Felix12g" wrote:Since you're using tools or holding things in most games, the haptics and finger tracking aren't really all that needed right now. For full simulations or other more freeform setups where you're interacting with the environment with your hands much more, it will be important.I looked around at options for glove systems and hand tracking, and barring wearinga set of pinch style gloves for added inputs at your finger tips in addition to the Hydra, I'm not personally going to look at gloves right now. That's just my take on it at present.While gloves themselves might not be useful across the board just yet, I'm interested in wrist mounted controls that you can duplicate with ingame models for the illusion and sense you're reaching down to interact with the display. Think a Lynx computer http://liquivision.com/lynx-omniscient-system.phpMan that is actually a pretty neat idea. The only is then you'd have to detect your fingers locations (on the hand interacting with the device) to show your fingers on screen for tapping on the wrist mounted device. I guess this would be achievable with a LeapMotion attached to your Rift though. This could be used for showing menus, inventory, maps, chat, music control, etc..

Well, yes and no, with your fingers closed around a Hydra controller you wouldn't get much benefit from a Leap. Hard for me to guess how easy it would be until I actually use a Hydra, but I'd guess you could hold a controller with pointer, thumb and middle finger. Use your ring and pink for inputs on the panel, and when extended a leap might catch onto those.One nice feature of that Lynx is actually the input, you tap the sides for input rather than hunting for a button with your hand encased in a dry glove or a thick neoprene. Thinking about it, those gloves actually do a halfway decent job of the clumsiness of a virtual hand and lack of precision. Anyways, the same could be true of a wrist mount system.I'm sure there's a lot of nice and creative setups you could use in conjunction with a glove system.

"xanderdavis" wrote:"Power Gloves" seem inevitable, and I would love to get my hands on/in them, but I do wonder how you reconcile movement (for example the Hydras have Twin Sticks).Many options, all of which would probably be more accurate and intuitive than thumbsticks..1- If the device was precise enough you could use subtle finger movements, like described in "Ready Player One"2- Use a specific gesture with the left hand (for instance) which would trigger a "mode" where you control the avatar movement using the overall hand tracking3- Foot controllers! (either seated or standing)viewtopic.php?f=25&t=219http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=138&t=15730http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=165154- Omni-type thingiesviewtopic.php?f=25&t=336http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=14409I personally have a thing for foot controllers, call it my VR fetish if you like, but that's a different matter entirely. :-)"Felix12g" wrote:Since you're using tools or holding things in most games, the haptics and finger tracking aren't really all that needed right now. For full simulations or other more freeform setups where you're interacting with the environment with your hands much more, it will be important.Yes but imagine seeing an exact replica of what your fingers are doing in the real-world (similar to the leap demos that float around) and imagine when you grab these tools you mention in-game being able to feel their resistance, size and shape. I think all that would bring immersion up a notch (or two)."Felix12g" wrote:While gloves themselves might not be useful across the board just yet, I'm interested in wrist mounted controls that you can duplicate with ingame models for the illusion and sense you're reaching down to interact with the display. Think a Lynx computer http://liquivision.com/lynx-omniscient-system.phpI'm not sure about this, i like the idea in-game but i think you could emulate it pretty well with a proper VR-globe like the one described, with the advantage of having a much more general device that could be used for many other purposes.

VR haptic gloves, without the gloves | Meta Community Forums

14 Replies

xanderdavis
Honored Guest
12 years ago
"Power Gloves" seem inevitable, and I would love to get my hands on/in them, but I do wonder how you reconcile movement (for example the Hydras have Twin Sticks).
Felix12g
Honored Guest
12 years ago
Since you're using tools or holding things in most games, the haptics and finger tracking aren't really all that needed right now. For full simulations or other more freeform setups where you're interacting with the environment with your hands much more, it will be important.

I looked around at options for glove systems and hand tracking, and barring wearinga set of pinch style gloves for added inputs at your finger tips in addition to the Hydra, I'm not personally going to look at gloves right now. That's just my take on it at present.

While gloves themselves might not be useful across the board just yet, I'm interested in wrist mounted controls that you can duplicate with ingame models for the illusion and sense you're reaching down to interact with the display. Think a Lynx computer http://liquivision.com/lynx-omniscient-system.php
AleksBeer
Honored Guest
12 years ago
"xanderdavis" wrote:
"Power Gloves" seem inevitable, and I would love to get my hands on/in them, but I do wonder how you reconcile movement (for example the Hydras have Twin Sticks).

A light-weight, easy to put on / take off pair of gloves with a laser mouse system built into the palm would be the way to go I reckon. They'd ideally have sensors on the finger tips so you could tap on your desk and emulate typing into a keyboard (of which a virtual model would show on screen) when needed. Been thinking about building a prototype but my electronics skills are below amateur! Can I patent this idea?!

Check these out for ideas of what I mean:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTZEHObmB0M

http://www.gizmag.com/airmouse-wearable-mouse/13993/

"Felix12g" wrote:
Since you're using tools or holding things in most games, the haptics and finger tracking aren't really all that needed right now. For full simulations or other more freeform setups where you're interacting with the environment with your hands much more, it will be important.

I looked around at options for glove systems and hand tracking, and barring wearinga set of pinch style gloves for added inputs at your finger tips in addition to the Hydra, I'm not personally going to look at gloves right now. That's just my take on it at present.

While gloves themselves might not be useful across the board just yet, I'm interested in wrist mounted controls that you can duplicate with ingame models for the illusion and sense you're reaching down to interact with the display. Think a Lynx computer http://liquivision.com/lynx-omniscient-system.php

Man that is actually a pretty neat idea. The only is then you'd have to detect your fingers locations (on the hand interacting with the device) to show your fingers on screen for tapping on the wrist mounted device. I guess this would be achievable with a LeapMotion attached to your Rift though. This could be used for showing menus, inventory, maps, chat, music control, etc..
Felix12g
Honored Guest
12 years ago
Well, yes and no, with your fingers closed around a Hydra controller you wouldn't get much benefit from a Leap. Hard for me to guess how easy it would be until I actually use a Hydra, but I'd guess you could hold a controller with pointer, thumb and middle finger. Use your ring and pink for inputs on the panel, and when extended a leap might catch onto those.

One nice feature of that Lynx is actually the input, you tap the sides for input rather than hunting for a button with your hand encased in a dry glove or a thick neoprene. Thinking about it, those gloves actually do a halfway decent job of the clumsiness of a virtual hand and lack of precision. Anyways, the same could be true of a wrist mount system.

I'm sure there's a lot of nice and creative setups you could use in conjunction with a glove system.
PatimPatam
Protege
12 years ago
"xanderdavis" wrote:
"Power Gloves" seem inevitable, and I would love to get my hands on/in them, but I do wonder how you reconcile movement (for example the Hydras have Twin Sticks).

Many options, all of which would probably be more accurate and intuitive than thumbsticks..

1- If the device was precise enough you could use subtle finger movements, like described in "Ready Player One"

2- Use a specific gesture with the left hand (for instance) which would trigger a "mode" where you control the avatar movement using the overall hand tracking

3- Foot controllers! (either seated or standing)
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=219
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=138&t=15730
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=16515

4- Omni-type thingies
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=336
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=14409

I personally have a thing for foot controllers, call it my VR fetish if you like, but that's a different matter entirely. :-)

"Felix12g" wrote:
Since you're using tools or holding things in most games, the haptics and finger tracking aren't really all that needed right now. For full simulations or other more freeform setups where you're interacting with the environment with your hands much more, it will be important.

Yes but imagine seeing an exact replica of what your fingers are doing in the real-world (similar to the leap demos that float around) and imagine when you grab these tools you mention in-game being able to feel their resistance, size and shape. I think all that would bring immersion up a notch (or two).

"Felix12g" wrote:
While gloves themselves might not be useful across the board just yet, I'm interested in wrist mounted controls that you can duplicate with ingame models for the illusion and sense you're reaching down to interact with the display. Think a Lynx computer http://liquivision.com/lynx-omniscient-system.php

I'm not sure about this, i like the idea in-game but i think you could emulate it pretty well with a proper VR-globe like the one described, with the advantage of having a much more general device that could be used for many other purposes.
BigKate
Honored Guest
12 years ago
the keypoint as far as the sony unit is that it gives haptic feedback so that the user feels the objects they are touching. If you don't care about having feedback then gestural input devices such as the kinect 2 and leapmotion are great because you don't have to wear gloves

I guess we just need someone to draw together all the current technology, design a solution that is as light as possible, something that can be bought at a sensible price and then launch it on kickstarter - sadly I am not that person!

maybe Palmer can pull that off as his next trick??

but if it happens i will be trying to buy at the early bird price
Shigawire
Honored Guest
12 years ago
Haptic VR gloves are an inevitable part of VR evolution.

I really like this patent. I understand that it will give your fingers some "dynamic resistance" - but I have been thinking of a "light" version of haptic vr gloves that would only give each finger a quick jolt of vibration, similar to when you tap your finger on a cell phone screen. This would be useful in games where you only use your finger to push buttons in a cockpit. Flight sims, space sims etc. Pushing buttons in the cockpit, and just getting a quick jolt. Similar to "Haptic feedback" on your cell phone. The makers of CyberGrasp already have such a system, called "CyberTouch" - not sure if it includes tracking. http://www.virtalis.com/products/154/cyberglove-systems.php

However, if this Sony patent you posted here allows actual resistance feedback, that is obviously better!
AlphaRay
Protege
12 years ago
I really like the idea of haptic gloves for VR. Some people have mentioned the limitation of not being able to move your character around in a game with a joystick. This is an obstacle, for sure... but I think this could be fixed with a virtual segway / jetpack / wheelchair / <insert personal mobility device of choice here>. Just put a virtual joystick on your virtual belt connected to your virtual jetpack, and if the haptics are good enough, the problem is solved! :D

I think the bigger problem will be creating an affordable haptics system that can offer dynamic resistance, positional tracking, and with locks strong enough to stop our digits completely (i.e. when holding a virtual object, or resting your hand on a virtual wall, etc.). I think a good place to start would be simple 2-arm exoskeletons. I know that sounds like an oxymoron, but so did "cheap, low-latency head tracking" two years ago. Now we call it "The Rift."
redslashace
Honored Guest
12 years ago
I have been working with a small team of engineering students at university of Texas Arlington on an arduino based haptic feedback glove. The glove is functional and can interface with unity however I need to find someone who can put together a good game demo for it. Anyone interested in helping?

PS we are planning on utilizing sixense new STEM system in conjunction with these gloves
Mrob76o
Honored Guest
12 years ago
Personally I'm hoping the PrioVR system gets backed more because they are adding gloves to the system

Just to confirm, the glove is one of the items at the top of our development list as soon as PrioVR is successful and we do plan to make them an add-on to the PrioVR system. As soon as we have more solid information about input gloves, we’ll be sure to let you know. :)

I think it will be superior to the STEM system. It's completely modular, will give true 1 to 1 control on all body parts that you need. I have used the hydra system coupled with IK to make an avatar as some have seen from my video but having 1 sensor at the end of each limb with IK joints just isn't good enough.