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4k @ Over 90 Hz

willste
Explorer
I know this has been touched on in a few threads but I just can't help but wonder about it again. It seems like even if CV1 comes out with a resolution of 2560x1440 there may be some discernible SDE. It would seem to really wipe that out you should ideally go to an even higher resolution. Possibly even 4k.

However Oculus will likely be pushing for over 90 Hz maybe a 120 Hz display for CV1. To my knowledge there is no single video cable now or in the near future that could push 4k @ 90 Hz. Even if your computer could handle that resolution. I believe HDMI 2.0 and the latest DP are both just on the edge of being able to do this since by my calculation that would take about 19 Gbit/s video data rate.

I guess it depends on how long they expect CV1 to last before CV2 comes out, but I would think a 3-5 year lifecycle for the CV1 may make sense. Meaning a 4k screen with a high refresh desirable to scale well with future hardware. Or maybe that could just use a different compression standard to tighten up the data rate requirements.

If they settled for 1440p and less the 120 Hz then current HDMI and DP standards would suffice but that doesn't sound like the wild jump that Oculus seems to be hinting at going from DK2 to CV1.
59 REPLIES 59

KBK
Protege
It is possible to address a 4k panel at 90hz, with a lower rez signal, so this is not a problem.

The deal is that the layers of correction could be 'hidden' in a local upscaler chipset for the panel proper.

So the feed does not have to be 4k@90hz. It can be 1080P at 90hz, and the local to the panel 'basic' scaling can be addressed to help alleviate micro-error in corrective algorithms, regarding fine detail.

Stacking algorithms, specifically corrective add/sub type ones, leads to an inevitable decrease of final output image quality that is below the original source quality.

One way to alleviate that, is to do as I have outlined. Software, improperly handled, can be a bit messy, and is lossy, at best, with regard to video scaling. The only way past that, is to divide finer in the following stages.

A simple scaler, so it is low power and low latency, addressing a 4k panel, is the best way past all these issues. That way you get the lowest loss in image fidelity all while keeping the pressure off the GPU.

HDMI 2.0 CAN do 1080p at 120hz, so this will work with modern hardware. So you could, conceivably, get to a 120hz 1080p-to-4k upscale.

The hole in that boat, so she don't float....is the non-existence of the low power simple scaling engine for this particular kind of application.

It may have to be a slightly higher power outboard box, with a more complex cable going to the headset. If it is handled that way, it is doable with today's hardware that is currently available.

(I had to work all these things out, with regard to the logic, back in 1999-2003 or so, while dealing with the emergence of digital projection and digital image capture as combined with digital image manipulation. They are both self explanatory, and not)
Intelligence... is not inherent - it is a point in understanding. Q: When does a fire become self sustaining?

Far515
Honored Guest
"willste" wrote:
I know this has been touched on in a few threads but I just can't help but wonder about it again. It seems like even if CV1 comes out with a resolution of 2560x1440 there may be some discernible SDE.



In an interview with Iribe, I read yesterday, he stated that the SDE is/will be completeley eliminated in CV1. I believe him. 😉

GamesBeat: In January or March, you showed DK2. That still had a bit of the screen-door effect. How soon will it be before you get that part taken care of?

Iribe: Consumer V1 will not have the screen door. We’re addressing that.



-> http://venturebeat.com/2014/06/14/how-oculus-vr-is-starting-to-change-the-direction-of-gaming-interv...
i7 4770K @4,4 GHz GTX 780 SC (EVGA) 32GB Corsair Vengeance 1866

willste
Explorer
I agree that the feed doesn't have to be 4k @ 90 Hz and could be up-scaled. As you state this is still not a cookie cutter solution and would require new hardware. However my consideration is to try to extend the viable life of the product. I suppose Oculus knows a lot more than I do about where graphics and display technology will likely be during the full planed life cycle of CV1.

I think it is entirely possible that in 2017-2018 we are going to have the horse power to push 4k @ 90 Hz plus without the need to up-scale. If this falls within the life cycle of CV1 it is feasible that they would want to allow it the capability of receiving such a signal. In which case I am curious what kind of cable they will be able to use to facilitate this.

Odds are though my lack of understanding on the subject of scaling and how video cards handle video data rates is causing me to be tripped up on issues that Oculus is not concerned with. It will be interesting to see what they do.

I also believe them when they say the SDE will not be an issue. Which makes me all the more curious as to their approach to make this a reality. But I suppose some form of scaling or a sub 4k resolution are all that makes sense. Maybe somewhere between 1440p and 4k is actually enough to make the user forget about the SDE.

Alex1S
Honored Guest
The screen door effect can be fully addressed at 1080p by a number of means, ranging from the cheapest solutions, such as diffusers, to backed-by-Facebook-money solutions, such as custom screens with high fill ratio at the same resolution. All these approaches do not help with blurriness, but the screen door effect is gone.

bp2008
Protege
There are techniques that can reduce or eliminate SDE even with lower resolutions. From what people have said the SDE isn't nearly as much of a problem with DK2 as it was with DK1, and CV1 is going to be better still.

I fully expect 1440p (or some less common resolution above 1080p) @ 90hz or higher for CV1. Performance issues aside, 4k is out of the question if they want a timely release, since they'd need DisplayPort 1.3 or HDMI 2.0 for that, and these are not available on anything yet. However 1440p @ 144hz is definitely possible with current DisplayPort 1.2, since Asus is doing that with a monitor to be released in July/August. 1440p is less than half the pixels of 2160p (4k) which makes it much easier for the graphics card to render.

I expect CV2 within 3 years of CV1 release, and quite possibly sooner if competition is strong. For CV2, I'd expect 4k resolution (or similar) at an equal or higher refresh rate than CV1.

VirtualMiner
Honored Guest
I'm hoping that in 2016 or 2017 the high(est)-end Pascal from Nvidia will be able to run even the newer games in Rift 2160p/96Hz, especially if SLI/Crossfire solutions can be developed or replaced with something more VR friendly. Maxwell won't be able to do it (not even close), but I'm positive that it can handle even the more demanding games at 1440p/96Hz.

CV1 sounds damn good though, assuming we are getting 1440p, no SDE, +90 Hz, FOV wider than DK2 & even lower latency 😄 Can't wait!

Edit: I predict that CV2 comes out in early 2017 🙂

willste
Explorer
"VirtualMiner" wrote:
I'm hoping that in 2016 or 2017 the high(est)-end Pascal from Nvidia will be able to run even the newer games in Rift 2160p/96Hz, especially if SLI/Crossfire solutions can be developed or replaced with something more VR friendly. Maxwell won't be able to do it (not even close), but I'm positive that it can handle even the more demanding games at 1440p/96Hz.

CV1 sounds damn good though, assuming we are getting 1440p, no SDE, +90 Hz, FOV wider than DK2 & even lower latency 😄 Can't wait!

Edit: I predict that CV2 comes out in early 2017 🙂


If we get CV1 in 2015 there is no way we would get CV2 2 years later unless it is already in development. New hardware life cycle typically takes 3 years, unless it is going to be mostly iterative. These are not phones.

VirtualMiner
Honored Guest
"willste" wrote:
"VirtualMiner" wrote:
I'm hoping that in 2016 or 2017 the high(est)-end Pascal from Nvidia will be able to run even the newer games in Rift 2160p/96Hz, especially if SLI/Crossfire solutions can be developed or replaced with something more VR friendly. Maxwell won't be able to do it (not even close), but I'm positive that it can handle even the more demanding games at 1440p/96Hz.

CV1 sounds damn good though, assuming we are getting 1440p, no SDE, +90 Hz, FOV wider than DK2 & even lower latency 😄 Can't wait!

Edit: I predict that CV2 comes out in early 2017 🙂


If we get CV1 in 2015 there is no way we would get CV2 2 years later unless it is already in development. New hardware life cycle typically takes 3 years, unless it is going to be mostly iterative. These are not phones.


I guess that depends on the upgrades CV2 will get. If it's just 2160p display and some other relatively minor things (=iterative?), 2017 won't be a problem. It certainly wouldn't take to 2 years to develop after CV1. I guess you could be right, If there are other major upgrades/new tech.

zalo
Explorer
In all likelyhood it's a pentile display. That cuts out a 3rd of the subpixels (and thus a 3rd of the information!!)

They could encode their pentile 4k image into a full res 1080p (or something) image and decode it on an onboard FPGA.

Heck they could even include info in the periphery of the screen (outside of the lens' field of view) and cut that back to black with the FPGA.