A Call for Shepherds in the Virtual Reality Community

[AtariHistorian]

Article here:
A Call for Shepherds in the Virtual Reality Community

[kevinw729]

"AtariHistorian" wrote:
There is /r/virtualreality over at Reddit which is doing fairly okay, but most of the population is over at /r/oculus. Still, it is getting quite a number of posts per day, and it has a ton of subscribers...

It will be like herding cats!

The OVR Reddit interest was after the collapse of support of the OVR Dev Forum (ODF) - even with the excellent work of CyberReality - the spam and troll attacks caused the whole exodus (as well as a lack of any actual real information). The fan-base is now entrenched as there is no real direction. Supplying a direction, information and access will get the audience to migrate, though I am still not sure if a "Social" forum is the right idea - if you collect membership detail then you can facilitate business and offer opportunities and that will drive interest further.

I see an approach like this:

- Online Database / FAQ
- Newsletter
- Forum
- Conference
- Delivery platform / Rating board

I am going to add one controversial addition - a research project on sickness through immersion!

[RirtualVeality]

"kevinw729" wrote:

"AtariHistorian" wrote:
There is /r/virtualreality over at Reddit which is doing fairly okay, but most of the population is over at /r/oculus. Still, it is getting quite a number of posts per day, and it has a ton of subscribers...

It will be like herding cats!

The OVR Reddit interest was after the collapse of support of the OVR Dev Forum (ODF) - even with the excellent work of CyberReality - the spam and troll attacks caused the whole exodus (as well as a lack of any actual real information). The fan-base is now entrenched as there is no real direction. Supplying a direction, information and access will get the audience to migrate, though I am still not sure if a "Social" forum is the right idea - if you collect membership detail then you can facilitate business and offer opportunities and that will drive interest further.

I see an approach like this:

- Online Database / FAQ
- Newsletter
- Forum
- Conference
- Delivery platform / Rating board

I am going to add one controversial addition - a research project on sickness through immersion!

What's it like living in your fantasy world where things like, "forum exodus" and "no real direction" exist? You have absolutely zero evidence of any of this. Someone left the forum due to spam? So what? And no information? you might want to let everyone know......oh wait, they're too busy getting info on how to run games, how to install the SDK, how to know if their computer is right for VR, how to set up the Rift....should I go on?


...you guys want to talk about "drama"? Ok, let's talk about YOUR drama with your consistent attacks on people and on OculusVR as a company. Your post history is my proof. As well as your post history on Reddit. It's embarrassing.

[AtariHistorian]

"kevinw729" wrote:

"AtariHistorian" wrote:
There is /r/virtualreality over at Reddit which is doing fairly okay, but most of the population is over at /r/oculus. Still, it is getting quite a number of posts per day, and it has a ton of subscribers...

It will be like herding cats!

I think I'm missing an assumption somewhere. Who is in need of a forum, for what purpose?

[kevinw729]

"AtariHistorian" wrote:
I think I'm missing an assumption somewhere. Who is in need of a forum, for what purpose?

The interchange of information (beyond the sulking trolls) is needed - the interchange, as we see with some of the Reddit discussions can open up a topic to scrutiny. From those discussions a moderator/curator would then add the crowd sourced information into a wiki or database.

[AtariHistorian]

"kevinw729" wrote:

"AtariHistorian" wrote:
I think I'm missing an assumption somewhere. Who is in need of a forum, for what purpose?

The interchange of information (beyond the sulking trolls) is needed - the interchange, as we see with some of the Reddit discussions can open up a topic to scrutiny. From those discussions a moderator/curator would then add the crowd sourced information into a wiki or database.

I'm going to have to go back and look at my logs, but I want to say that I cut back most of my activity in the Oculus forum when they started getting frequent waves of DK1 shipments. The signal:noise ratio went out of whack as everybody was rediscovering the same things (over and over) that we had learned just months earlier. A miniature preview of the Eternal September.

I wish we could predict if Oculus would have captured some lessons-learned for the launch of CV1, but they're not talking. I know how much you like to point out each liability that Oculus has. I hope to think that it is only because they're the frontrunner and the company seems unwilling to publicly answer all but a few questions? I do have some concerns that if you split off on a road like this that you'd need to maintain a better relationship with Oculus and company.

You know, at first, I wouldn't even have considered the approach of an entirely new VR community that is outside of vendors, MTBS3D, and reddit. Now, I'm starting to see a bit of value. I won't claim to be 100% on-board, but you've got my interest. It could bring something new to the table.

[kevinw729]

"AtariHistorian" wrote:
I hope to think that it is only because they're the frontrunner and the company seems unwilling to publicly answer all but a few questions? I do have some concerns that if you split off on a road like this that you'd need to maintain a better relationship with Oculus and company.

An independent view - that is warts and all, being able to compliment the company, but also point to the issues without looking like sycophants making excuses for failings. I work with many companies that I have also highlighted for failings, and also complimented for development. And you can look back at my previous posts where I have compliments the "team" behind OVR for their hard work. That does not negate from the issues - no one is perfect!

I'm starting to see a bit of value. I won't claim to be 100% on-board, but you've got my interest. It could bring something new to the table.

I would support this move, offering a level of independence and the data collected could be shared within the community rather than being horded for individual utilization. That said, as a consultant I would only be able to offer advise and support, and not be able to take direct involvement, similar to my links with RTVR.

[Akshara]

I am glad to see the topic back on track, yet feel that what I am pointing to should be part of the discussion and worth considering if the goal is a successful VR community rather than just contemplating navels.

The masses arriving to VR are going to be mostly everyday people, grabbing it in BestBuy and Walmart simply because it’s cool or as an escape from their own stresses and lives. Many are going to have basic questions that have been asked many times. Some may express irrational fears or be struggling to understand what’s happening to them and unable to phrase their experience as a question or even know what to ask and may be frustrated, defensive and upset. For some, VR may cause them to question the nature of their own identity and perception, either for the first time or in a newly profound way. And some may just be tired at the end of their busy day and are irrationally upset because the tech isn't working and don't know why and just want somewhere to vent or to feel understood.

And they are going to come here. Or to any safe haven VR community, many never having heard of netiquette, reddit, wikis and trolls and unaware of the prior history that everyone has been through to get VR here.

To me, it’s not just about making things better/easier for the shepherds. It’s also about the shepherds making it better/easier for everyone else.

Though I disagree with RitualVeality’s approach and overall perspective, he has a point about the sheep metaphor. It crossed my mind the moment I read it, yet it didn’t get in the way of the larger message being presented - for me. Yet any english dictionary is going to list the second or third entry under “sheep” as a negative term describing people easily influenced, led or who can’t think for themselves; it is a colloquialism often used by the elite to describe the masses who can be easily fooled or misled - sheeple.

Most everyone reading this thread probably knows this.

Nowadays people get mislabeled as “trolls” way too often, it’s become the new way of dismissing and belittling others. Sure, occasionally there is a genuine troll who is making trouble on purpose to derail discussion or just for the lolz, yet that doesn’t apply to RitualVeality here nor to the gentleman over in the "Wish I had Waited" thread.

I submit that there is no pathway to a healthy and helpful community, for VR or anything else, where the very ones who have the capacity and capability to do the most good throw about terms like sheep, trolls and ingrates to describe those who are the most lost, upset or disagreeable.

Compassion, understanding and patience are the ingredients that are being left off the table and their absence sours the course that you’re trying to create. The real darn problem of scale is that you actually have to care about the people which comprise the abstract mass.

It isn’t easy, yet it is necessary. Maybe you guys already get this and see it as besides the point, but I’m not picking up that vibe at all. It’s like the collective erudition and experience being expressed here have become unseen blinders to the key ingredient of your hoped for community - the people themselves.

Please understand that I am only saying this because I like the ideas that you're presenting and am not happy with having to come to this forum nor to r/oculus because the environments are so hostile, while MTBS has too much history, and would love to see an impartial, healthy safe haven community for VR where it actually feels like everyday people are welcome, wanted and encouraged to participate.

[AtariHistorian]

"Akshara" wrote:
Though I disagree with RitualVeality’s approach and overall perspective, he has a point about the sheep metaphor. It crossed my mind the moment I read it, yet it didn’t get in the way of the larger message being presented - for me. Yet any english dictionary is going to list the second or third entry under “sheep” as a negative term describing people easily influenced, led or who can’t think for themselves; it is a colloquialism often used by the elite to describe the masses who can be easily fooled or misled - sheeple.

I agree that there are some readers who, after seeing wolves, shepherds, and sheep used together, will still wind up with an unintended meaning of sheep. I can ninja edit the article at any time to add clarity, and it won't hurt to do it. Do you think putting something as simple as "(not sheeple)" after the first use of sheep is enough, or should there be a breakout box with a full definition? Do you have a definition you would suggest?

"Akshara" wrote:
Compassion, understanding and patience are the ingredients that are being left off the table and their absence sours the course that you’re trying to create. The real darn problem of scale is that you actually have to care about the people which comprise the abstract mass.

Regarding compassion, understanding, and patience, I've issued at least two apologies to the hostile voice, at least one of which was completely unprompted after I explored the possibility that this anger might have actually been genuine and not manufactured. That demonstrates compassion and understanding, although admittedly, it could have come quicker in the face of ongoing hostility. At this point, you'll find that I haven't directly responded to or escalated his most recent attack. That demonstrates patience.

The point of caring about people has not been lost on me. In fact, it is a major reason for the call to action. From the article: "...we should use this limited window of opportunity to capture the kinds of questions and issues that new users have, and then to figure out what we can do to help them be more successful, and in greater numbers." The focus is in the right place. (But it never hurts to remind us of that.)

I'd love for this to be born out of a completely positive experience, but it seems that not all of us are interested in working together. I'm led to understand that it may go back far beyond this one thread (an example). Without using a moderator, if you could demonstrate how to use those three elements to bring that hostile voice to the table as a productive contributor, I would certainly learn from the experience.

Otherwise, I think the rest of us could benefit by putting less of our focus on this one hostile voice and putting more of our effort in working together to do something positive.

"Akshara" wrote:
The masses arriving to VR are going to be mostly everyday people, grabbing it in BestBuy and Walmart simply because it’s cool or as an escape from their own stresses and lives. [...] For some, VR may cause them to question the nature of their own identity and perception, either for the first time or in a newly profound way.

The psychological and emotional support of the community is something I hadn't deeply considered. That's an interesting perspective! I'm making note of that.

"Akshara" wrote:
would love to see an impartial, healthy safe haven community for VR where it actually feels like everyday people are welcome, wanted and encouraged to participate.

I hear you. What I personally suspect, but really haven't asked others for input on, is if some of the unhealthy activity is bleed-over from our roots in the gaming community. (That is likely to be an unpopular opinion to ask here or on Reddit.)

[Akshara]

"AtariHistorian" wrote:
I agree that there are some readers who, after seeing wolves, shepherds, and sheep used together, will still wind up with an unintended meaning of sheep. I can ninja edit the article at any time to add clarity, and it won't hurt to do it. Do you think putting something as simple as "(not sheeple)" after the first use of sheep is enough, or should there be a breakout box with a full definition? Do you have a definition you would suggest?

I'm not going to presume that your article even needs editing. It's your opinion piece and is well written. If you are genuinely entertaining the idea of editing it, the very existence of a shepherd implies a flock.

Recognizing how some might misinterpret your intent doesn't mean that it needs changing.

"AtariHistorian" wrote:
Regarding compassion, understanding, and patience, I've issued at least two apologies to the hostile voice, at least one of which was completely unprompted after I explored the possibility that this anger might have actually been genuine and not manufactured. That demonstrates compassion and understanding, although admittedly, it could have come quicker in the face of ongoing hostility. At this point, you'll find that I haven't directly responded to or escalated his most recent attack. That demonstrates patience.

Yes, I recognize and appreciate your response. My comments are not directed solely to your personal response, rather to the entire discussion from all parties as a whole.

"AtariHistorian" wrote:
The point of caring about people has not been lost on me. In fact, it is a major reason for the call to action. From the article: "...we should use this limited window of opportunity to capture the kinds of questions and issues that new users have, and then to figure out what we can do to help them be more successful, and in greater numbers." The focus is in the right place. (But it never hurts to remind us of that.)

I appreciate your intent and call to action. From my perspective, the focus seems to be more on the users' experience with the technology, rather than on the users' experience.

The technology might be what brings people to the door, yet it is their personal experience that they care about. People join a community to be heard and to be validated, that's what they really want. Not to be told what to do or how to do it, no matter how well intended. Anyone can research an issue and find an answer on their own, what they can't find by themselves is understanding from another, an ear to listen, that feeling of not being alone.

I recognize that sounds a bit Oprah and is not true in all circumstances and in all communities, especially in technology communities. Yet we are talking within the context of the mass populous here and that does change things.

"AtariHistorian" wrote:
I'd love for this to be born out of a completely positive experience, but it seems that not all of us are interested in working together. I'm led to understand that it may go back far beyond this one thread

Indeed, there seems to be a lot of bad blood here. I spent several days researching the history on MTBS, reddit and through here, because I wanted to understand better why things were so hostile and what I discovered did not paint a pleasant picture. There are a lot of genuinely hard feelings, and in some cases, understandably so.

"AtariHistorian" wrote:
Without using a moderator, if you could demonstrate how to use those three elements to bring that hostile voice to the table as a productive contributor, I would certainly learn from the experience.

Well without a direct exchange, I can only present two possible scenarios based on this thread.

Though it may be effective, out-crazy-the-crazy is not a compassionate response by its very nature. When facing hostility, it is possible to disarm by trying to understand the source of the hostility and asking for clarity. Yes, in the face of some hostile situations there is no choice but to meet it aggressively, that I learned from Krav Maga, yet I also learned about meeting a response with equal force and that to disarm does not require causing harm. That's a choice.

Another example, when Kevin responded to my post, at first with grace and class...

"kevinw729" wrote:
Thank you for your observations @Akshara - I understand your perspective, though expecting us to act like stone against attack is a tall order from any man - but will consider the proposition. Lets move one and get things back on track.

That was exactly what I was talking about, being the better man. And then there is this version...

"kevinw729" wrote:
Thank you for your observations @Akshara - I understand your perspective, though expecting us to act like stone against attack is a tall order from any man - but will consider the proposition. Lets move one and get things back on track and ignore the ingrates.

See the difference?

"AtariHistorian" wrote:
Otherwise, I think the rest of us could benefit by putting less of our focus on this one hostile voice and putting more of our effort in working together to do something positive.

I don't see it as one hostile voice. I see it as an overarching attitude from the more vocal on this forum toward those who either hold differing or unpopular opinions or are new to VR and confused or upset. I could pull dozens of threads as example, or just go through the history from those on my ignore list.

There has been more than one hostile voice in this thread. I count six, including yours and my own.

"AtariHistorian" wrote:

"Akshara" wrote:
The masses arriving to VR are going to be mostly everyday people, grabbing it in BestBuy and Walmart simply because it’s cool or as an escape from their own stresses and lives. [...] For some, VR may cause them to question the nature of their own identity and perception, either for the first time or in a newly profound way.

The psychological and emotional support of the community is something I hadn't deeply considered. That's an interesting perspective! I'm making note of that.

That's the thing that I'm most concerned about. Many people might not know what they're getting into with VR and might not be able to handle it that well. Some of it might be psychological and emotional while some of it might even fall under the category of spiritual or philosophical. Whatever their issues, they will be coming and looking for help from those who have been there before, as you point to in your article. We just have to be willing to meet them where they are at, wherever that is.

I think that's going to require openness, compassion and a willingness to listen. Even more so in the face of hostility.

"AtariHistorian" wrote:
I hear you. What I personally suspect, but really haven't asked others for input on, is if some of the unhealthy activity is bleed-over from our roots in the gaming community. (That is likely to be an unpopular opinion to ask here or on Reddit.)

I wonder this too. Sometimes the forum does feel a bit like NeoGAF on a really bad day. However I suspect that much of it also has to do with the community's roots in the MTBS community and the feelings that many have regarding the Facebook acquistion in light of that.

I wish that I had more positive and practical things to offer and would like to see more focus from the community in working together to do something positive. I admit that I've added to the negativity here a bit and apologize. Both to the forum and to you, AtariHistorian, for losing it in your article's thread.

I have hope that tomorrow will be a better day. No matter how bad things have been, they can always get better.

[kevinw729]

"Akshara" wrote:
...Though it may be effective, out-crazy-the-crazy is not a compassionate response by its very nature. When facing hostility, it is possible to disarm by trying to understand the source of the hostility and asking for clarity. Yes, in the face of some hostile situations there is no choice but to meet it aggressively, that I learned from Krav Maga, yet I also learned about meeting a response with equal force and that to disarm does not require causing harm. That's a choice.

I find your observations compelling @Akshara, and have to admit for a certain level of "impatience" with certain posters. I suffer fools badly, and my typing can reflect this, and even of dismissal that can be counter productive. However, I feel that when a "individual" wants to troll an commentator, then there is little you can do other than ignore or "return equal force" - and in returning (and undermining) can only escalate!

We were unlucky that a number of "individuals" had been sold upon an idea of the "VR Community" representing a salient and inclusive World. And so consternation with the acquisition and 'walled garden' approach suddenly taken in new direction on the proposed "roadmap". That the expectations of "open source" were firmly closed to them, and the hopes of certain Kickstarters quashed has added to a level of resentment. Certain vitriolic voices on the forums coming from a clique of the disgruntle. If in naming this I am being antagonistic, I apologies for my opinionatedness.

"Akshara" wrote:
I admit that I've added to the negativity here a bit and apologize. Both to the forum and to you, AtariHistorian, for losing it in your article's thread. I have hope that tomorrow will be a better day. No matter how bad things have been, they can always get better.

I feel that we all bring a certain level of culpability to the discussion, and will hold my hand up towards the opinionatedness and forcefulness of those said opinions. The ability to also instill a "Marmite" reaction in some only adds to the problem. There was also the issue of how some have been sold on a view of how VR will work - the more that changes the more the resentment grows. A case in point "VR for the masses" seems to be migrating towards "VR for those willing to buy a BIG PC" - that has hurt many's aspirations.

For me the dismissal of some views as not being relevant has come as the sharpest blow. And as those nay-sayers find the error in their view we see a new level of personal attack, in a defense of previous erroneous comments. A perfect example is the claims to my post that "...what Disney did with VR is not relevant", only for a rush of backtracking after the GDC presentation!

Can I conclude in saying, thank you for your input - your reference to the MTBS3D situation is one of "archive" and memory that hits home. I note that after the "issues" with MTBS3D recently; eluding to any previous commentary for certain parties has become a target of attack, (event the success of IMMERSION was attacked!) Context is interesting, but observation is king. We need to avoid attacking the observers/messengers and build on driving the communities ability to grow.