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Discussion points concerning Live Action VR Cinema. Is it really here and ready?

Gerald1W
Honored Guest
Hey guys,

I posted this earlier but I think I stuck it in the wrong section so re-posting here, hopefully this is right.

First up primarily I'm a cinematographer (not a developer or VR wiz) and I've got a feature film script on my desk which I believe lends itself to the immersive/VR cinema idea perfectly. It has 3 defined acts, each act in 1 single small location (rooms within a house). 

In my research though I'm coming up against a fair few issues I guess which are concerning and this seems to be the best hive of activity for all things VR related so thought I'd post and see what answers I can get.

1.
I haven't come across any examples of live action narrative story telling using VR that I find engaging.

I've looked at some of the material from Jaunt but their use of the 360 degree camera seems to mostly be as a gimmick.

Can someone point me to an example of a production which has used high end equipment (red Epics perhaps?) which has followed through and has maintained its quality to distribution.

2.
Speaking of distribution, I'm concerned that if making a feature film in any VR format it seems to be locked in to 1 distribution hardware/platform.

Can someone (if its possible?) talk me quickly through the process of taking footage from a multicam Red rig like this:

http://www.cinematographydb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Volvo-Header02.jpg

And then once it is stitched together... is it possible to output it so different platforms can view it (i.e. rift/vive/PSVR/cardboard) ? OR is it that you pick your platform first and from pre production to post production you are locked in to 1 avenue.

3.
Speaking of Google Cardboard... and thinking about codecs... it would appear that h264 can not handle the data required for 360 video. Even with a 90 degree viewing angle... a 360video requires 4x the bitrate of a regular HD video. Now because compression rates are already set on youtube, it means the compression for each view is 4x greater so most of the videos you can watch on youtube seem extremely blocky/low res. The playback is truly awful. Does anyone have any insight in to codec support for the different VR systems and if anyone will have native h265 support which COULD potentially support the higher bit rates required for 360 video. 

Doing a rough calculation my 70minute feature film, if encoded for h265 and played on screens of similar resolution to a Rift, would require 11gb of video. Anyone have any discussion/contributions as far  as this as being delivered viably?

4.
It would seem the majority of 360 degree videos provide the viewer with an angle of view of between 90 and 110 degrees. For anyone familiar with cinematography/lenses/photography this equates to a 9mm lens on an APS-c (super 35mm motion picture format) or a 14mm lens on a full frame camera (for those who have shot 35mm film stills). 

These are EXTREMELY wide lenses and don't offer very flattering images and also offer extremely exaggerated foregrounds and backgrounds.

Does anyone know if people have shot with tighter lenses and then also offered tighter viewing on the distribution end? Ideally I'd be aiming for around 50-55 degrees of field of view which is slightly closer to the humans field of view than the extremely distorted views we are used to in VR.

5.
Audio! Is 50% of a film. And I'm very worried that anyone listening using headphones will become disorientated when they are turned 180 degrees from the action and hear sounds in the wrong ear.

This post from Story Studio covers these concerns but I'm wondering what would then happen when you try and output the video for a different VR headset. I guess these are standards that aren't accepted and every delivery would require a new soundmix?

Final thoughts

If anyone has read/thought about/might have answers to any of these questions I'd LOVE to hear any ramblings, thoughts or comments.

I guess in my ideal world, it is possible to shoot in a tighter field of view, with high end equipment... Then stitch everything together and output to multiple different delivery options (different VR headsets). The playback codecs will catch up with the intense amount of data required to output a high quality image (something I haven't seen yet in any example) while the audio is also aware of the direction of the viewer.

I believe these points are major hurdles blocking the progression of VR and Cinema combining.

9 REPLIES 9

nosys70
Expert Protege
by definition, there is no live action cinema.
cinema is a story splitted in parts, staged, recorded, then technical effect applied (editing at the simplest level , special effects at the most complex) to bring back the story in the final form, with the main purpose of driving the spectator through the picture framing and visual tricks.

From this point of view, cinema is more like writing a book. .
If you want live action , this is theater, opera or reality TV show, that is more like reading the book.
I doubt you can make live cinema. There were some attempt in TV series to make live episodes, but this is not cinema.
The are some domains where live action, one take is used like the lipsync video clip.
not sure VR would bring something there, since even there , all is carefully planned (framing the action).

There is a potential for what you describe , but it would be more in multiplayer gaming, were you are in the game, and random action is generated by the players.

to get an idea, download and play the "Henry" story from the oculus store.


Gerald1W
Honored Guest
Hi Nosys70,

Live-action is a term that differentiates a video from being animated.

live action
noun
  1. action in films involving filming real people or animals, as contrasted with animation or computer-generated effects.


nosys70
Expert Protege

it does not change the fact that most movie today, are not live action, since they include almost all green screen keying, matte painting, special effects, planned stunts, adding or removing props in CGI etc...

So you probably would need to choose to create you movie more like a game, with CGI rather that just shooting it, if you really want it to be VR. Actors would be "emulated" by CGI clones.

Only exception: Porn , real TV and theater (if you get rid of the goold old stage,backstage etc...)



Roaster
Rising Star
360° video is a huge mistake and its use should be discouraged.
i7-5820K @ 4.2Ghz, water cooled, Asus X99-Pro USB 3.1, 48 Gb DDR4 2400, Samsung 950 pro M.2 SSD, GTX 980 Ti SC, 750w psu

nosys70
Expert Protege

no , 360 video can be great , but it not because it exists it must be everywhere.

it like 3D and VR. something can be nicer or better in 3D or VR, but it can be also totally irrelevant.

Gerald1W
Honored Guest

nosys70 said:

it does not change the fact that most movie today, are not live action, since they include almost all green screen keying, matte painting, special effects, planned stunts, adding or removing props in CGI etc...

So you probably would need to choose to create you movie more like a game, with CGI rather that just shooting it, if you really want it to be VR. Actors would be "emulated" by CGI clones.

Only exception: Porn , real TV and theater (if you get rid of the goold old stage,backstage etc...)





Nosys, I think you're missing the point. regardless of how much CGI they use, if the originating capture format is using a cinema camera to film people then it is a live action film. I'd say a couple of exceptions might be the Tintin film and other films like that where it IS clearly animated, but they used capture devices to help mimic actors.

Anyway my original point still stands and I don't feel like arguing about the definition of live action vs animation. I plan on filming a feature in VR and it does NOT include animation, special effects, explosions, stunts etc... 

I'm just after answers to the questions I asked.

nosys70
Expert Protege

you can do a live action movie, but it will be boring like hell.

And you will have to skip on most of what makes a movie , shooting grammar, using all the tricks from

camera. Basically using the frame (what is in and what is not and the scale, close-up, pano, wide etc..) , the transition, the depth of field, the point of view, all that is hardly usable in VR without using a lot of caution (or not using it at all)

Sterescopic (3D ) brought already a lot of limitation, but that's nothing in regard of What VR asks for.

VR movie is not just saying  it is like a classical movie but just with a wider field of view.

just imagine a scene in a car, where do you shoot from, the driver seat, the passenger, the rear seat, from outside.

and if several passengers are having a conversation, how the spectator spots who is speaking and turn to the right direction ?

imagine they are looking for somebody, and suddenly a passenger shout "Hey, he is here !" , how the spectator guess what direction he needs to look.

Chance are you spectator will always be a bit late on what happens in the movie, so you have to slow down the action a lot, give clues about the immediate action.

I mean it is a lot of work, and not sure the result give a nice story to look at.


Gerald1W
Honored Guest
Nosys,

you will have to skip on most of what makes a movie , shooting grammar,

Yep. Basically anyone making a film using a 360 rig at this point gets to re-write the language we use. Cinematographers have had 100 years to define a language that viewers understand. Now it can be done again, from the start. How exciting.

imagine they are looking for somebody, and suddenly a passenger shout "Hey, he is here !" , how the spectator guess what direction he needs to look.

Oculus and Google have both developed ways of tracking the direction audio comes from. 

https://storystudio.oculus.com/en-us/blog/binaural-audio-for-narrative-vr/

http://imgur.com/C9jxelD

That means sound stops being a problem and becomes a fantastic tool to direct the viewer where you want them to look. 

Just like in a traditional frame, you can lead a viewers eyes somewhere but that doesn't 100% mean they will look there. It will be the same with VR.


I think many of the problems can be overcome through extensive pre-production, directing, blocking and using the distance between the stationary camera rig and the actors. Obviously this stuff won't just work by accident... but it is do-able.

BUT I'm still missing answers for all my original questions. =\



nosys70
Expert Protege
well question :

Is it really here and ready

answer, can you name any movie ? (out of porn, and a bunch of music videoclip ?)
I think there is a long way to make people wanting to look at a movie with (currently) shitty VR google and 5.1 bulky headphones.
Out of a few experience to push the limits, you will not likely go into your next theater to look at a VR movie.