Embodiment vs. Presense

[Devilstower]

We often talk about the subtle feeling of "being there" that makes up "presence," and the tricks of movement and camera angle that turn out to have a surprisingly large effect on how much you feel in-the-scene as opposed to watching-the-scene.

But one thing that makes a huge difference for me rarely gets discussed — embodiment. That is, how much does the game make you feel as if you're not just there, but there as more than a pair of floating eyeballs (and occasionally a set of detached hands). Nothing takes away from the sense of being there more than looking down and seeing ... nothing. No legs. No feet. No body.

It makes a huge difference in the feeling (for me, at least) in Elite: Dangerous that I can look down and see my body, legs, and feet sitting in the pilot's chair. I often find myself adjusting my real chair and my position to match the placement of the body in the game. It helps me achieve maximum "being there" as my little craft makes those long transits between star systems. I'll even shift in my seat when the in-game figure does, to promote that sense of "that's me."

There are also moments like the "mirror scene" in Dead Secret. These moments help me feel like "yes, I'm not me ... but this is who I am in this story." It helps me associate; helps to set the tone and expectations of how things will happen for the character.

There are certainly games where this isn't important (I'm a huge fan of Defense Grid 2, and having a giant presense in the playfield definitely would be distracting) but in many first-person games I find it hugely disappointing that there's no "me" in there. I've even found myself sitting around in vTime, solo, just because their avatar system makes it possible for me to get that "here I am in a different place" feeling.

And no, sorry, the sparkly little chunks o' people that are Oculus avatars don't do it for me. If anything, they hit me with a big screaming "hey, look, it's all NOT real." 

So, here's three questions:

1. Does having a body via an in-game avatar weigh in your decision of which games to play?
2. Which games have the best systems for designing your "you" in the game?
3. Which games do the best job of making you feel embodied as someone else in the game?

Thanks.

[Hiro_Protag0nist]

1. No.
2. I don't think there are any - it's such a difficult thing to do.
3. Elite Dangerous - not as someone else, after long enough, just the odd little bit of body (clothing) i see is enough.

Here are my thoughts on presence - you must be in the Rift for long sessions, so you melt into VR.  You must be set up correctly and have peace and quiet.

You definitely don't need a body - looking for your body in my opinion means you're playing around, not present in the world.  Similar to when you first try it on and look around at everything.

Hardware isn't good enough to give us presence in a real world scenario - it's much easier to draw space or some imaginary world - we've never been there, we can believe that Elite Dangerous is real.  Try to show me Great Britain and i will know that it is wrong and therefore presence will never be achieved.

[Docsteel]

I think in time this quality will be an important aspect - but in general it's just too soon.  As I understand it, Oculus has a commitment to the "camera sensor" approach because they feel there is more development and integration possibilities there, not the least of which is either projecting the user and parts of their surroundings into the virtual space.  We are a long way off from that with the current sensors, but in time...

[Choronzon]

You have to suspend disbelief, and be willing to become a part of your surroundings. I find the immersion is deeper when there's no-one else around - one of my earliest VR experiences was 'Lost in the Rift', and after wandering around lost for 20 minutes I accepted that I was there.

I agree - there's nothing more off-putting than being confronted with animated cardboard cutouts, characters who are only believable in comics. Photographic realism in VR games will make a huge difference.

[Devilstower]

I've spent literal days in the Rift — going back to DK1, but having a "body" in game really helps to ground me. It's certainly not a huge demand—something as simple as the fishing freebie has it—but the fact that other games don't really bugs me.

take Farlands, which I generally love. The cadet moves via teleport, but while even the floating robot casts a shadow, your cadet does not. Neither can you look down and see your feet. Why not? The game gives marvelous detail to the creatures, terrain, ship interior, etc. a bit for a pair of space-suited legs wouldn't be so much.

[Elias24601]

I've only been in during the last twenty four hours and I have only briefly tasted "embodiment".  I will say that the range of "presence" is wildly broad between the titles.  Then you can throw around "immersion" as well.  All of these terms function similarly and at the same time differently to define our VR experience (beyond the basic metrics of games).

Keep in mind, each individual brain prioritizes these VR hooks differently.  The best titles aren't those that can deliver all three (and these three concepts aren't an exhaustive list by any means).  Some examples from my vault of consciousness...

*i felt*
Adrift; no embodiment, no presence, fantastic immersion.
EVE Valkyrie; brief embodiment, good presence, good immersion.
Dead Secret; brief embodiment, no presence, good immersion.
Lucky's Tale; no embodiment, rich presence, great immersion.

What I find interesting about this reflection is that while EVE has positive impressions across all three Tao of VR, my (surprisingly) favorite experience is Lucky's Tale.  My brain is baffled at the presence I feel in that game.  As a release title I can't give the devs enough credit.

Embodiment: I would hazard to say that any game where you disconnect your real life body from the actions of the VR game will drop your chance at embodiment to near zero.  Since I sit at my desk and don't have room-scale as a good option I should only expect embodiment to happen in games where my character is seated... EVE/ED.  Standing games have a shot if you can work around locomotion... Ripcoil/DB/SPT.

Presence: This is the brain's wild card.  I don't know there is anything you can do to reliably find games or design games with presence.  A fun discussion is whether or not you can feel presence in MinecraftVR based solely on cosmetic style.

Immersion: This is likely the easiest to find/design.  Immersion depends on the technical more than the other two.  Early on the forum was abuzz with "things that break my immersion" discussions.  Mostly directed at the hardware limitations or the direct software support of SteamVR vs OH, but regardless.  If you stay away from the well established and growing list of no-nos then the game should first and foremost have a shot at being immersive.  Of this (incomplete?) VR trinity you live and die by immersion before you can even discuss presence or embodiment.

All that said,
1) Right now, no.  I'm buying and trying anything I can.  If Lucky's Tale can break all of my expectations then I can't trust myself to be selective yet.
2) Any system which offers a balance of fantastical and realistic options.  I like a nice realistic avatar.  Something that can put "me" in the experience.
3) See above for my idea of embodiment.  TL;DR, games where my in game persona is sitting at a desk just like I am forced to do in real life.

[Mr_Creepy]

I remember in Ripcoil I suddenly realized I had complete arms and a whole body. In my limited experience here it was pretty awesome to have a physical body. It was in the menu and I only remember experiencing it once. So I don't know if it was a bug or not, cause you don't usually have a body in the menu.

I can see how it's very hard to do for the whole body though, in a game where you move around physically.

[Devilstower]

Yes, having a body in a game where there's direct movement is difficult (until we're all wearing motion capture suits), but since most of the games we're playing now either involve sitting or moving by teleport, it's simple enough to approximate the position. Again, look at Elite. Being able to look down and see "yourself" in the ship is really a "woah" moment that really puts you between the stars.

[elrealchiqui]

Devilstower said:

[...]
It makes a huge difference in the feeling (for me, at least) in Elite: Dangerous that I can look down and see my body, legs, and feet sitting in the pilot's chair. I often find myself adjusting my real chair and my position to match the placement of the body in the game. It helps me achieve maximum "being there" as my little craft makes those long transits between star systems. I'll even shift in my seat when the in-game figure does, to promote that sense of "that's me."
[...]
And no, sorry, the sparkly little chunks o' people that are Oculus avatars don't do it for me. If anything, they hit me with a big screaming "hey, look, it's all NOT real." 

Curiously, I really felt embodiment in Superhot. I am a huge Matrix fan and this is my all-time favorite game on the Rift. You don't need nice graphics or even a virtual body to feel like there.

One thing I remember clearly, I tried once to dodge bullets coming in my virtual legs by moving one of my real legs but then I died because without moving my head, my virtual self didn't move in the game. It was so weird !

I also tend to match myself with my virtual body in EVE or Elite but it's not the same feeling. I feel disconnected because I can move my real body differently from the game and that breaks everything.

In Dirt Rally, it is a complete other feeling. I play with the Xbox controller (I don't have a wheel nor pedals) and it feels so real for me that I even have some reflexe moves in my feet and legs. I also feel sometimes the G force in all my body in some turns or decelerations.

To react about the avatars... After some times looking in the mirror and doing stuff, I punched my headset with the Touch while trying to change the glasses of my avatar because I completely forgot about the hardware, I was totally in !

[Bloodlet]

Yes having an ingame body really adds to the feeling of being there, but only if it's done well.
Elite Dangerous is one of my favourites it's but not without it flaws.

 Firstly The scaling is wrong for me. I'm six feet tall, yet when I look down at my body in Elite it feels like I'm a 12 year old kid again as the body is too small and the legs too short. In "Project Cars" you have the option to change world scaling, allowing you to effectively change the size of the avatar and everything else around you to suit your actual size.
 Secondly, when I lean in any direction my head comes off as my body doesn't move.
Anyone that managed to play the old Oculus demo "Couch knights" may recall that if you leaned in that your avatar also leaned, that was actually the best part of the demo for me.

I'm not saying that any of this is immersion breaking nor is not having a body at all but it certainly helps.

Before I upgraded to a new PC, I could only get the 90 fps I needed in "War Thunder" by unchecking the show pilot option. I had previously run the game fine with the DK2 at 75fps with pilot. I hated no longer having a body and flying in full but empty cockpit ruined the experience for me.