Meta Discuss Children's VR Saftey

[kevinw729]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59937610

[Anonymous]

Being involved in FB and Oculus VR over the last few years - does not necessarily leave me a warm and fuzzy with the safety of the children going forward. I would love to see them do more, along with others involved in the arena, especially with this Meta Verse thing that is supposedly coming.

[Zenbane]

No parent should feel "warm and fuzzy" leaving it up to an organization or corporate entity to look after their children. Parents needs to play an active role. Organizations and Governments can provide guidelines and tools. But it is up to the parents to implement them

If there is more to be done, then it would be interesting to actually hear some suggestions and ideas. People tend to ask others to do more without actually explaining what "more" means. It's much easier to criticize than to offer real solutions. And as long as people continue to put forth criticism over solution, then situations like this will continue to play out as they always have.

[DaftnDirect]

There is the Ideas section of this forum that provides a voting system via kudos for any suggestions people have to improve Meta VR. This is then something that Meta devs use to priorities changes.

The beauty (or irony depending on your point of view) is that everyone can vote, whether you use Meta headsets of not, even if you don't use consumer VR, you can all vote on things that will affect Meta users.

There are several Parental Control requests but 2 main ones which I think are the ones to focus on. One has just over 100 votes which is asking for simple controls and another with around 140 votes asking for Parental Controls to prevent bad behaviour from kids rather than towards them. I know this because I'm one of the voters on the former.

You can create your of requests if you feel these don't fit. So if you think making the Quest more expensive is a possible solution, create a post for that. If you think the Facebook account requirement of being 13+ isn't enough and Meta should also control and moderate other companies apps such as VRChat, if their teams are too small, create a request for that.

Without serious suggestion this thread will look to the rest of the forum like it's another Meta bashing exercise or baiting exercise and this particular subject is too important to be used in that way.

[cmat100]

It's very easy to pideon hole it between "FB's problem to sort alone" and "Parents should do their job with 1984 style monitoring".   But neither are a solution,  as both are, well, impossible.

FB could do it's part by having Parental Controls that exist,  supported by an account system focussed on VR not social media.  E.g.  App Categorisation - So VR Chat could come under "Interactive Social" and then be blocked.   Or an option to disable "In App Voice Chat".  Same for Zombie Dismemberment - a category for "Violence".  This is basic stuff that my Sky Q box does.  I can tell you that YouTube got quickly blocked during lockdown.

But you can't ignore the elephant in the room,  which is using a flipping FB account.  The moment FB did that,  it brought along a lot of extra and unwelcome baggage from Politics to child safety.

[Anonymous]

Well let's hope they take that Ideas section more serious than they ever did the feedback thread on the new forum here in the General section they had up for so long. There needs to be a consortium of suppliers to work together on this to make this Meta Verse they are hoping to achieve very safe for our children. And it is not just Facebook or Meta, many are contributing to the development of the Meta Verse. 

So no I do not see this thread as an opportunity to bash Facebook but more to share concerns for our children and grandchildren as this thing progresses. I have three grandkids that got Quest 2's for Christmas all under the age of 13.  I have tried to warn my children to be very aware of what those kids are doing whilst wearing the headsets. Unfortunately there will be some parents that will view them as babysitters and will not be aware of what they are viewing and hearing in it. I think both the hardware and software providers will need to take some responsibility as well.

[DaftnDirect]

Actually @Anonymous I don't think you're one of the FB bashers nor do you bait members and I don't think you have something against the Quest.

I totally agree, everyone including Meta should take this seriously. I don't know how seriously they take the feedback systems but I've not got any data or facts to support lack of seriousness for either the old Uservoice or the new Ideas way of doing it, I'd need to talk directly to the devs before forming a negative opinion. Support are constantly asking for people to use the section but it definitely won't have an effect if we don't vote or make suggestion there, opting to talk about it here is good but a few people expressing the same sentiment multiple times isn't as persuasive as many people each with the same opinion, i.e. votes. When I checked, I don't think anyone posting in this thread had voted on parental controls except me.

Incidentally, parental controls has a downside. Having them implies the headset is for parents to give to children and therefore risks encouraging the very thing that Meta have repeatedly said, in that the headset isn't for children. The people who claim that it's marketed to children will have evidence to support them.

But I voted because it's probably the least worst option. Perhaps introduce it as 'content control' instead.

[Zenbane]

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@cmat100 wrote:

It's very easy to pideon hole it between "FB's problem to sort alone" and "Parents should do their job with 1984 style monitoring".   But neither are a solution,  as both are, well, impossible.

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That is simply untrue. Good and proper parenting is most certainly a solution. Trying to mock good and proper parenting by calling it, "1984 style monitoring" is both ineffective and hyperbolic. Trying to refute a logical argument by insulting it can be considered... 1600s style debate. 😉

Monitoring what your children do is far from impossible. Parents do it every day.

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@cmat100 wrote:

FB could do it's part by having Parental Controls that exist,  supported by an account system focussed on VR not social media.  E.g.  App Categorisation - So VR Chat could come under "Interactive Social" and then be blocked.   Or an option to disable "In App Voice Chat".  Same for Zombie Dismemberment - a category for "Violence".  This is basic stuff that my Sky Q box does.  I can tell you that YouTube got quickly blocked during lockdown.

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Children can get around all of the parental controls, including unblocking software and content. Unless a parent is doing the responsible thing and "monitoring" what their children are doing, then all of that is completely futile.

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@cmat100 wrote:

But you can't ignore the elephant in the room,  which is using a flipping FB account.  The moment FB did that,  it brought along a lot of extra and unwelcome baggage from Politics to child safety.

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That is far from true. Even if Facebook has simply stuck with the Oculus platform separately, they would still face the exact same challenges. Whether Oculus Social or Facebook Social, the problem remains the same: Social Controls.

In fact, the opposite is true: Facebook has made their job easier by integrating with their Social Media platform. Facebook has a wide range of privacy controls, and they have the ability to extend those controls to Oculus Social with the integration.

[cmat100]

I'm not going down the rabbit hole of the Zen-Infinite loop, but I will disclose a few things 😉

1)  I have 2 children under 10 years old.

2) They are not allowed near my Oculus headset  (They're still figuring out reality, let alone VR).

3)  No such prohibition on Nintendo Switch.

[kevinw729]

Thanks as always for your cogent observations.

Just building on that. The Nintendo approach to offering a platform for a 'wide' audience adoption meant having to man up and take responsibility for policing the platform and dealing with the issues of young players. As we have seen from Nintendo - they have been active in policing, and have had both success and failures, but have been proactive. 

At the same time we have seen the train wreck that is Roblox, and how they have failed to address serious concerns with their hugely popular platform. Now being forced to address the environment they have allowed to manifest, and facing possible sanction.

Parental responsibility is paramount - but also the level of responsibility that a corporation takes in the platform they create will be a factor in the force of the sanctions applied to address the imbalance, and possible harm to minors (still governed under the law). 

[Zenbane]

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@cmat100 wrote:

I'm not going down the rabbit hole of the Zen-Infinite loop, but I will disclose a few things 😉

1)  I have 2 children under 10 years old.

2) They are not allowed near my Oculus headset  (They're still figuring out reality, let alone VR).

3)  No such prohibition on Nintendo Switch.

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The cmat100 Loop is equally enticing 😉

1. I have children as well. Listing a child resume adds zero value to the discussion at hand.
2. How do you know that your children never go near the Oculus headset? Do you monitor them? What about their Internet use? Unmonitored Internet usage is far more dangerous that unmonitored VR usage.
3. We have the Switch in our home as well, and we have monitored usage for reasons that should be obvious to any parent.