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True black smearing in DK2
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07-24-2014 10:32 PM
After the EULA post, i started to browse treads in reddit and i found about this problem, i would like to know why it happens. It has to do with the AMOLED matrix? for example, the capacitor in the pixel circuit delaying the pixel due to charge time? or what is the reason of this problem.
Knowledge, the ever growing and most powerful tool known. Pick it up! the common fools are scared of it!
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Anonymous
Not applicable
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07-27-2014 12:08 AM
We can be pretty sure this is fixed when CV1 arrives. DK2 will serve as devtool just fine and with incoming fix it will do so even more. And there is no going back to LCD, those just sucks. When they are fast then colors, contrast and viewing angles(factor when we are looking screen so close) are just horrible bad and even then they fail to be fast enough.
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07-27-2014 01:28 AM
Someone a few pages back suggested testing monitor calibration (or similar) as a software fix. Does Windows still see the Rift as a monitor (please forgive me if this is common knowledge)?
I won't have a DK2 for a few days, but has anyone tried this?
I won't have a DK2 for a few days, but has anyone tried this?
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07-27-2014 03:23 AM
so.. the motion blur results in purple shadow halos around stuff?
it might have to do with the HDMI..
obviously the best way would be to connect through DVI-D but they want to appeal to a bigger crowd than having a specialized tech that works BEST for a small select group that won't make that much $$$
Sony is very good at motion as their 240hz LCD makes 30 fps look like 60. I think Oculus will use Sony's tech and combine Oculus tech to make one product (before Microsoft or Apple decide to step in and take market share like they did with Nintendo and Sony).
it might have to do with the HDMI..
obviously the best way would be to connect through DVI-D but they want to appeal to a bigger crowd than having a specialized tech that works BEST for a small select group that won't make that much $$$
Sony is very good at motion as their 240hz LCD makes 30 fps look like 60. I think Oculus will use Sony's tech and combine Oculus tech to make one product (before Microsoft or Apple decide to step in and take market share like they did with Nintendo and Sony).
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07-27-2014 05:24 AM
I wish people would stop saying it's only a DevKit, so that makes the smearing alright. They are going to fix it which makes it alright, but if it wasn't going to be fixed it wouldn't be alright. The next one will be CV1 and they have to get this one right to make sure CV1 is fit for release.
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07-27-2014 07:52 AM
Coming from an traditional artistic background before moving into graphic development I think I can see the cause for the black smear, although I haven't received my DK2 yet to experience the problem first hand.
It has already been mentioned several times about using RGB 0.0.0. black and I totally agree this would be the cause.
It would be a natural side effect of the low persistence solution of turning each pixel black between colours causing, in turn, a persistent effect to 0.0.0 blacks.
The use of 0.0.0 black needs to be avoided in development.
To quote my old Art Tutor (or at least paraphrase). "Take a look around you. True black is minimal to the point of rarity. Using black paint straight out of the tube is a sign of laziness and makes an unrealistic picture. There has to be a light source to see anything and this light creates shades of grey even on a black surface. If the grey eventually becomes black it will have traveled through many shades first."
I was thinking about this while flying through an asteroid field in Elite Dangerous watching the shadows on each rock and wondering why the black smearing allegedly doesn't occur here as there is so much pure black and not a lot of shading, was my tutor wrong?.
No, not for most instances but yes for this one. I believe there are two reasons why it doesn't occur in Elite. (Again I can't test this until I receive my DK2).
There is very little shading in Elite's interpretation of space, light and dark are stark contrasts. watching an asteroid turn, the shadow seems to pour over it like black ink with no grey shading. I can only guess that the black smear effect is there but you can't see it as it gives the same effect.
The second reason is the speed of the shadow transition. It all happens very slowly because of the scale of objects and the viewing distance. I would assume this would be the same case in the Eve Valkyrie demo and similar in Alien Isolation as it's also a dark game where you're not moving fast for fear of being seen.
As stated in other posts there is very little black in Couch knights and Lucky's tail so the effect doesn't occur.
So how can it be avoided? At a guess I would say every scene needs to avoid using 0.0.0. black in the foregrounds and limit it's use to distant backgrounds.
I'm not sure if raising the base black to 2.2.2. would cure it without making a false or washed out image.
Would it be possible to create an opposite effect to the colour low persistent solution (pixels turning black between frames) where blacks turn a different neutral colour between frames?
It has already been mentioned several times about using RGB 0.0.0. black and I totally agree this would be the cause.
It would be a natural side effect of the low persistence solution of turning each pixel black between colours causing, in turn, a persistent effect to 0.0.0 blacks.
The use of 0.0.0 black needs to be avoided in development.
To quote my old Art Tutor (or at least paraphrase). "Take a look around you. True black is minimal to the point of rarity. Using black paint straight out of the tube is a sign of laziness and makes an unrealistic picture. There has to be a light source to see anything and this light creates shades of grey even on a black surface. If the grey eventually becomes black it will have traveled through many shades first."
I was thinking about this while flying through an asteroid field in Elite Dangerous watching the shadows on each rock and wondering why the black smearing allegedly doesn't occur here as there is so much pure black and not a lot of shading, was my tutor wrong?.
No, not for most instances but yes for this one. I believe there are two reasons why it doesn't occur in Elite. (Again I can't test this until I receive my DK2).
There is very little shading in Elite's interpretation of space, light and dark are stark contrasts. watching an asteroid turn, the shadow seems to pour over it like black ink with no grey shading. I can only guess that the black smear effect is there but you can't see it as it gives the same effect.
The second reason is the speed of the shadow transition. It all happens very slowly because of the scale of objects and the viewing distance. I would assume this would be the same case in the Eve Valkyrie demo and similar in Alien Isolation as it's also a dark game where you're not moving fast for fear of being seen.
As stated in other posts there is very little black in Couch knights and Lucky's tail so the effect doesn't occur.
So how can it be avoided? At a guess I would say every scene needs to avoid using 0.0.0. black in the foregrounds and limit it's use to distant backgrounds.
I'm not sure if raising the base black to 2.2.2. would cure it without making a false or washed out image.
Would it be possible to create an opposite effect to the colour low persistent solution (pixels turning black between frames) where blacks turn a different neutral colour between frames?
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07-27-2014 09:32 AM
"Bloodlet" wrote:
Coming from an traditional artistic background before moving into graphic development I think I can see the cause for the black smear, although I haven't received my DK2 yet to experience the problem first hand.
...
I'm not sure if raising the base black to 2.2.2. would cure it without making a false or washed out image.
While I would agree that avoiding the black tube speaks of good craftmanship in painting I don't think it is a good idea to treat the pixels of a light emitting screen the same as a colour palette for painting e.g. with oil colour. Apart from that there are more graphic (vs. painterly) art styles or unusual settings like the blackness of space that can make good use of an "inky black". It seems to me that the true black smearing is a problem that comes with the technical limitations of the OLED and it would be great if it could be fixed or diminished. I think a workaround like you mentioned (raising the base black) was tried but led to a green haze because of a majority of green subpixels on the display.
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07-27-2014 09:46 AM
It was exactly the same on the Sony PSP. You have to make sure NO channel goes to zero (otherwise that channel smears) I worked on a game where there was a red landscape scrolling in front of a blue sky, and until we figured this out and made sure the red had a tiny amount of G and B, and the blue a tiny amount of R and G, it looked AWFUL.
Ultimately, though, no big deal. Just never render 0 in any channel.
Ultimately, though, no big deal. Just never render 0 in any channel.
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07-27-2014 10:34 AM
Should be no Problem to Add the 1/1/1 minium for the Screen instead of 0/0/0 direct in the displaycontroler or the SDK itself. So the Display would never render a 0/0/0 even its in the Game.
As far as i know this was done by Samsung before to avoid the smeer on mobilephones.
As far as i know this was done by Samsung before to avoid the smeer on mobilephones.
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07-27-2014 10:37 AM
"nicorose" wrote:
Should be no Problem to Add the 1/1/1 minium for the Screen instead of 0/0/0 direct in the displaycontroler or the SDK itself. So the Display would never render a 0/0/0 even its in the Game.
As far as i know this was done by Samsung before to avoid the smeer on mobilephones.
That's likely what the upcoming 'fix' is that's been mentioned by cyber/brentlew
Anonymous
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07-27-2014 10:38 AM
I just wonder if its possible to really come close to black with the OLED panel not turning off the pixels. Let's not forget, Light Emitting Diodes (Diodes in general) have a certain voltage threshold that must be reached before they start to conduct. It's possible that the LEDs will have a minimum lit value that might not be as dark as we would prefer.