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VR vs 2D - VR Has a Long Way To Go

Shadowmask72
Honored Visionary
Yesterday I purchased a rather swanky Samsung KS7000 4K HDR 10 Bit TV (KS8000 in North America). It's not Samsung's top end TV but mid to high range. I traded in my 4K 28" ASUS monitor for this TV so I could take advantage of the Xbox One S and soon to be PS4 Pro HDR capabilities. My conclusion is that VR has a long way to go as 2D TVs are simply miles ahead in terms of visuals. I'm not necessarily just talking about how lovely 4K looks in comparison but more the HDR and colour spectrum which are miles ahead of current HMDs. The good news hopefully though is once VR headsets can catch up (although we could be waiting 10 more years) then I believe VR will have reached its full potential. I also have to state that much like trying to describe VR to those who've not experienced it the same can be said for HDR.

As a couple of examples - I watched a 4K youtube video (yes, not the best 4K quality but good enough) of some scenes of New York, having been there with the missus a few years back for my birthday. She remarked on the quality of the image and said it was almost like actually being there due to the high resolution, wide range of colours and lighting. I tend to agree despite the lack of full 360 degree viewing and 3D depth. 

I've also been playing some Battlefield 1 and Titanfall 2 and can honestly say the HDR in Battlefield 1 (officially HDR supported)  using the Xbox One S up-scaled 4K is excellent and certainly creates much more believable lighting.  There's moments where you're flying a biplane into the sunlight above the clouds, it's breathtaking and could be considered a work of art - something I've never really experienced in VR. Bright light sources can make you almost squint which is an interaction with a TV I've never had before. The KS7000 has a HDR feature that can also add some HDR effects to unsupported content and a look at one of my Rise of the Tomb Raider 4K videos was simply stunning. I've gotten over the merits of 4K long ago with my monitor but the HDR is on another level. You feel the brightness of every light source and the reflection or casting on skin/materials is highly impressive. 

So it got me thinking about the parallels between the two planes of VR and 2D content and I surmised that although lacking the immersive qualities of current VR the overall picture quality of current TVs offers a different kind of immersion that's unmatched - looking into a window of a reality rather than being in it at low quality where any belief is dispelled due to the poor (in comparison)  visuals. Perhaps it's not fair to compare the two as they are so far apart but the mind can only boggle that once VR displays are on the same levels as current high spec TV sets we will truly be able to fool the mind that we're someplace else in the real world - here's looking at you 360 degree 3D VR videos of the future.


System Specs: MSI NVIDIA RTX 4090 , i5 13700K CPU, 32GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 11 64 Bit OS.
41 REPLIES 41

Shadowmask72
Honored Visionary
@Zenbane, you might be onto something there as I've been glued to 28" 4K or less for a long time now outside of my 3D 1080p Projector for big screen moments. So to jump up to a bigger screen size of such quality is quite the contrast and there's obviously a purchaser's honeymoon period I'm in until it becomes the norm. That said, I stand by my remark that the 2D immersion I'm getting now from this beast of a TV is very different from the one in VR. So perhaps Warbloke is correct that comparing the two isn't feasible as they are so different. I will reiterate though if we do get the same image quality in VR 10 years from now then hell yeh!


System Specs: MSI NVIDIA RTX 4090 , i5 13700K CPU, 32GB DDR 4 RAM, Win 11 64 Bit OS.

Zenbane
MVP
MVP
If you turn your head ever so slightly in any direction, you will see the walls, floor, or ceiling in the room that TV resides. You aren't immersed bro.

That being said, I could use a TV upgrade in my bedroom. hmm...

EliteSPA
Superstar
I see VR as a diferent form of gaming, ofc graphics and res arent the best but this is the first year of a VR consumer product and we have to wait what Nvidia or AMD are going to release in the upcoming years, HMD depends on them. If You compare first Call Of Duty game to new battlefield 1 you can see a great diference.

Nowadays we have the new ASW with which will do the magic for upcoming games, so we need to be patience.
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Zoomie
Expert Trustee

I think maybe what Shadowmask72 is seeing is high definition fooling the brain into thinking it's a real object and not a displayed image.  Resolution may be getting to the point where - at an appropriate viewing distance - we can no longer see individual pixels.  In this case our brain sees the object as existing rather than being an image made up of dots that we interpret.

VR meanwhile fools us into thinking something 'exists' in a 3d sense because it stays right where it should even while we move our view or body around the virtual object.  The resolution is bad but the object behaves as if it was a real object close to us, which still fools part of the brain.  This is the elusive 'presence' we talk so much about.

Both of these techniques are fooling our sense of sight in different yet profound ways. 

The ultimate trickery will occur when we can generate resolutions that hit the "this isn't a display" button, while simultaneously hitting the "this is a 3d real world object" spatial button.  That's when (pardon the pun) shit gets real.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. - Arthur C Clarke

zboson
Superstar
Wikipedia describes it pretty well. There is HDRI, HDR video, and HDDR.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_dynamic_range
      "
  1. High-dynamic-range imaging (HDRI) is the compositing and tone-mapping of images to extend the dynamic range beyond the native capability of the capturing device.
  2. High-dynamic-range video (HDR video) is greater than standard dynamic range (SDR) video which uses a conventional gamma curve.
  3. High-dynamic-range rendering (HDRR) is the real-time rendering and display of virtual environments using a dynamic range of 65,535:1 or higher (used in computer, gaming, and entertainment
     "
What @Shadowmask72 is talking about is HDR video. The human eye is cable of recognizing a wider range of luminescence than is possible with Standard Dynamic Range and these new HDR video display are capable of showing more. It's new hardware that your old TV can't do.

I am more familiar with HDRI and HDRR.  In my ray tracer I used high dynamic range images and used them for environmental mapping and the effect is significantly better. But I used a standard display. The point is that by adjusting the light conditions HDR images show more details than would be possible with SDR images.  Lots of games already do this using a standard dynamic range display.

I based a lot of my work on this link http://www.pauldebevec.com/Probes/

I'm glad you brought this up @Shadowmask72. I have been confused on this as well until now. I see now that that HDR video is newer and better hardware.  By combining HDRR and HDR video the effect should be quite amazing (in certain situations).

VR would likely certainly be much better with HDR video. Though for me, I think the depth perception is more exciting than the HDR video but as you said I should not judge it until I see it for myself.

cybereality
Grand Champion
Yeah, HDR is a huge deal and probably much more important than increased resolution. I also recently got a 4K TV, the Samsung KU6300. It has an HDR compatibility mode, but the panel itself is not HDR. However, they don't seem to make true HDR panels in the 40" size I wanted. I did check other sets at Best Buy, and HDR is incredible. It's a world of a difference. Colors pop, it looks much more real.

Simulated HDR techniques have been used at least since Half-Life 2. Basically it allows colors outside the normal range to be calculated, and then the game uses a post-processing pass to adjust the colors into a displayable range the monitor supports. True HDR can actually display that information on the screen. Meaning instead of 16 million colors, it can display over 1 billion colors. There are also improvements to the overall brightness, and the range of different brightness shown at one time via local dimming (meaning lighter areas can be more bright, while darker areas more dark simultaneously). Probably the best example are the LG OLED sets in terms of quality, but they are pricey.

At the 40" size (for a monitor) and sitting close to the TV, there is a lot of immersion. It's not VR level of immersion, but it's certainly more engulfing than the 27" monitor I was using previously. And I've been having fun with some games that aren't (and probably won't be) in VR. They are different things, but I think everything has it's place.
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Choronzon
Adventurer
Surely it's not only resolution that determines whether a thing is perceived as 'real' or not. Even with poor resolution I find it much more involving watching 2D/3D in VR than actually being in a VR gaming environment - what I see on the screen is a real world populated with real people, not cartoon characters in a comic-book environment. which, hard as I might, I cannot interact with on more than a superficial level.

Comic_Book_Guy
Superstar


I traded in my 4K 28" ASUS monitor for this TV so I could take advantage of the Xbox One S and soon to be PS4 Pro HDR capabilities. 

Comic_Book_Guy
Superstar
Oh my god this forums quoting system is terrible. Any ways..Shadowmask72, you don't really think the Xbox or Ps4 Pro are going to be native 4k do you? 

cybereality
Grand Champion
Xbox One S, probably not, but PS4 Pro is going to be doing something very close to real 4K. While real 4K can technically work, it will probably be reserved for older games like PS3 remasters. They have some pretty fancy techniques for reaching the higher resolution, it is not simple upscaling like you find on cheap DVD players.

See this article if you're really interested. 
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-inside-playstation-4-pro-how-sony-made-a-4k-ga...

And I opened many of the images on the post on my 4K TV and they look great. Practically as good as any 4K native PC games I've tried, and certainly a big step up from 1080P native or 1080P upscaled.
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