Political correctness invades the world of virtual reality

@LZoltowski -  Okay, so people saying "Suck my dick" doesn't offend you as a gay man, but what if a team of all heterosexual game devs made a game where you play as a straight man, trying to fend off hordes of sex-crazed gay rapists who are all depicted as stereotypically effeminate and creepy and exaggeratedly ugly, etc.?   And this game turns out to be super popular, like all the big youtube celebrities are playing it and everywhere you go, teens are talking about the game, and everyone's just casually throwing around homophobic slurs and talking about how terrifying gay men are and what they'd do if a gay man ever attacked them..

Would that be funny?  I don't know how much homophobia you have or have not personally experienced during your life-time, but obviously that's something that still exists in our society and that people are still fighting to eliminate, so I can't imagine you'd be happy to see a game that blatantly demonizes gay people, or to see that game being played and celebrated by the people around you, and I can't imagine you'd be upset if the game ended up being taken down.

THAT is what it's like to be neuro-divergent and see all these games where "mental illness" is treated like a zombie plague, or a character-defining trait shared by almost every fictional villain and ONLY by the villains.

And in case you think I'm not qualified to express how the "mentally ill" feel about this subject.. Well, I don't like to go around advertising this, but I "suffer" from a few things myself, not the least of which being Borderline Personality Disorder.   When I say it hurts neurodivergents when this kind of stuff is in the media, I'm speaking from personal experience. I'M not a bad guy, I'm not a threat to the people around me, or undeserving of trust. I'm not unreliable, I'm no more "irrational" than any regular person, and I'm far from being a burden to society.  But because of the way the media depicts "the mentally ill", numerous people throughout my life have automatically assumed those sorts of thing about me without any reason to, or alternatively assumed that I MUST be a regular neurotypical person BECAUSE I'm not any of those things.   I'm talking my parents, teachers, classmates, former employers, potential employers, love interests, even my closest friends.  And it ****ing hurts to be treated like that, every time.

Does that mean I get offended if someone calls somebody else "crazy"?  Not any more than you're offended by people saying "suck my dick".  But there's a big difference between things like that and actual ableism or homophobia, which IS harmful.  And I'm not too fond of media or people that actively promote bigoted ideas or that makes people like us the butt of jokes, and of never being depicted in a positive light.

CrashFu said:

@LZoltowski -  Okay, so people saying "Suck my dick" doesn't offend you as a gay man, but what if a team of all heterosexual game devs made a game where you play as a straight man, trying to fend off hordes of sex-crazed gay rapists who are all depicted as stereotypically effeminate and creepy and exaggeratedly ugly, etc.?   And this game turns out to be super popular, like all the big youtube celebrities are playing it and everywhere you go, teens are talking about the game, and everyone's just casually throwing around homophobic slurs and talking about how terrifying gay men are and what they'd do if a gay man ever attacked them..

Would that be funny?  I don't know how much homophobia you have or have not personally experienced during your life-time, but obviously that's something that still exists in our society and that people are still fighting to eliminate, so I can't imagine you'd be happy to see a game that blatantly demonizes gay people, or to see that game being played and celebrated by the people around you, and I can't imagine you'd be upset if the game ended up being taken down.

THAT is what it's like to be neuro-divergent and see all these games where "mental illness" is treated like a zombie plague, or a character-defining trait shared by almost every fictional villain and ONLY by the villains.

And in case you think I'm not qualified to express how the "mentally ill" feel about this subject.. Well, I don't like to go around advertising this, but I "suffer" from a few things myself, not the least of which being Borderline Personality Disorder.   When I say it hurts neurodivergents when this kind of stuff is in the media, I'm speaking from personal experience. I'M not a bad guy, I'm not a threat to the people around me, or undeserving of trust. I'm not unreliable, I'm no more "irrational" than any regular person, and I'm far from being a burden to society.  But because of the way the media depicts "the mentally ill", numerous people throughout my life have automatically assumed those sorts of thing about me without any reason to, or alternatively assumed that I MUST be a regular neurotypical person BECAUSE I'm not any of those things.   I'm talking my parents, teachers, classmates, former employers, potential employers, love interests, even my closest friends.  And it ****ing hurts to be treated like that, every time.

Does that mean I get offended if someone calls somebody else "crazy"?  Not any more than you're offended by people saying "suck my dick".  But there's a big difference between things like that and actual ableism or homophobia, which IS harmful.  And I'm not too fond of media or people that actively promote bigoted ideas or that makes people like us the butt of jokes, and of never being depicted in a positive light.

How do you know that Mario and Master Chief don't have a mental illness CrashFu?  The answer is you don't, just as we wouldn't have known that you have your issues.

You have pointed out quite nicely that mental illness in real life is nothing like how it is shown in games and films - a zombie plague?

I personally will laugh at the jokes where gay men are made out to be running around effeminately purely for the reason that it's utterly ridiculous - i won't burst out laughing when i'm working with my gay colleagues because unfortunately they are perfectly boring and it just isn't funny that they are gay.

I will laugh at my friend who is a computer genius if he ever attempts to plug a USB cable into a displayport socket (even if it is an accident - christ, he knows it doesn't go there) - i will rib him for weeks about it.  I won't laugh if granny Smith does it - i will explain the different ports and show her diagrams.

You are perfectly entitled to your views and i'm not trying to change them, i'm just trying to explain that others have different views but they are not borne out of malice or hatred of anybody.

Personally, I think that simple good manners will mean that developers should try, within reason, to avoid offending people. And if they find that they've unintentionally offended people, to apologise and seriously consider correcting the offence. Obviously, if correcting the offence would put the company out of business and/or lose many people their jobs, it would have to be a pretty major degree of offence.

However, this does get difficult when what they have done doesn't in fact seriously offend anyone, but causes people to be outraged on behalf of others. It is quite right that the most vulnerable people in society, who may be unable to speak out for themselves, have others speak out on their behalf, but 'Political correctness', I think, comes into play when people become outraged without good cause simply because they get a buzz from self-righteous indignation - which most people who are self-aware will know can be quite addictive.

In the case of a video game, it would be a decision by the publishers whether any uproar is well founded or is self-indulgent posturing.

I haven't played this game, so for all I know the publishers and developers realised that, yes, it was genuinely offensive, that they'd been thoughtless, and that they should make up for it. Or the publisher decided the money coming in wasn't worth the fuss, and took the commercially sensible path of least resistance. But that's for the publisher to decide - it's their money on the line.

CrashFu said:

Just found this thread;  I see that it's over a month old (still on page 1 of off-topic, though.. wow this subforum doesn't see a lot of use).  But I don't think enough was said here on the matter..

The media has been demonizing neuro-divergent people for about as long as mental illness has been a concept;  When people are too lazy to give their fictional villain a logical motive for their actions they just go  "Oh he's evil because he's mentally ill. That's also his only personality trait."    And IRL when someone commits any kind of violent crime, do people make any attempt to fix the laws and societal conditions that allowed that crime to happen?  No, they just look for a mental illness to diagnose the criminal with, and write the whole incident off as  "mental illness making people violent".

Ableism is every bit as bad as racism, but people are only just now starting to stand up and speak out against it; If somebody made a VR experience where you get attacked by a bunch of mexicans or muslims or black people for absolutely no reason, don't you think that would get shut down just as quickly?  And would you complain about it in that situation, too?

P.S. - Opposing prejudice isn't political.  Making up a derogatory word to label people who oppose prejudice and blaming THEM for ruining everything? THAT'S political.

P.P.S.  Every member of the human race has a responsibility to treat the people around them with the consideration and respect they deserve. Not just neurotypical people or any other privileged group, ALL good people.  If your primary interest in VR is escaping that responsibility, you should probably seek mental help yourself.

P.P.P.S. - I hope you realize that responsibility extends to any SHARED VR Spaces as much as it does the real world, so if you don't want to get banned from those spaces (with no refund), you'd better exercise a little "political correctness" while you're there.  (Or just stick to SteamVR, since they don't have any objections to bigotry over there.)

I'm afraid you and your bucketful of isms shouldn't be in VR. Mental constipation and political correctness are a heady mix - liable to result in a naivety that borders on absurdity.

Shooting, stabbing, blowing up people for no good reason (there are very good reasons if you're mentally ill) are manifestations of mental illness, and no amount of political correctness can hide that fact. I am not responsible for crazy people. The only the responsibility governments have for crazy people is to lock them up or see that they are not a danger to the public. Sure, not all the mentally ill are psychotic, but there is sufficient mental imbalance in the mind of the sufferer to make neuro-typical Jack and Jill wary of going up that hill with mentally unbalanced companion.

'Neuro divergent people'. You make it sound like a life-style choice.

Lets keep this thread in the realms of "Does VR have an extra responsibility in its source material" kind of angle. To keep it open.

No personal attacks either, just your own opinions.

I wonder how those who were sensitive to the "vr experience" would handle American McGee's Alice or its sequels. They deal with completely mad and unhinged homicidal characters. or game like F.E.A.R that has many levels in abandoned mental hospitals full of "evil" patients.

And not forgetting my Favourite, Silent Hill !!!

Techy111 said:

And not forgetting my Favourite, Silent Hill !!!

Oh what a game.

That fog.

Those lockers!

LZoltowski said:

[snip]

I wonder how those who were sensitive to the "vr experience" would handle American McGee's Alice or its sequels. They deal with completely mad and unhinged homicidal characters. or game like F.E.A.R that has many levels in abandoned mental hospitals full of "evil" patients.

One thing that differentiates VR from flatscreen is how much more visceral the experience can be, and how it could, in some people at least, provoke a much stronger emotional response.

And, of course, there's no such thing as a fixed standard when it comes to what is considered offensive. Culture and standards change over time.

Having read a couple of news items, I would say that the park owners were deliberately using mental illness as a way of frightening people.

"The ride was originally named Fear VR 5150; numbers corresponding to the official state code detention of a person who may be suffering from a mental disorder causing an individual to be considered a danger to others or themselves."

Also, far from apologising for any unintended offence, they tried to pretend they never meant it in the first place, saying

“Contrary to some traditional and social media accounts, the attraction’s story and presentation were never intended to portray mental illness."

That sort of juvenile "But I didn't mean it!" defence immediately makes me think that they didn't give a toss if they upset anyone and were too wrapped up in themselves to apologise for making a mistake.

GableRatchet said:

CrashFu said:

Just found this thread;  I see that it's over a month old (still on page 1 of off-topic, though.. wow this subforum doesn't see a lot of use).  But I don't think enough was said here on the matter..

The media has been demonizing neuro-divergent people for about as long as mental illness has been a concept;  When people are too lazy to give their fictional villain a logical motive for their actions they just go  "Oh he's evil because he's mentally ill. That's also his only personality trait."    And IRL when someone commits any kind of violent crime, do people make any attempt to fix the laws and societal conditions that allowed that crime to happen?  No, they just look for a mental illness to diagnose the criminal with, and write the whole incident off as  "mental illness making people violent".

Ableism is every bit as bad as racism, but people are only just now starting to stand up and speak out against it; If somebody made a VR experience where you get attacked by a bunch of mexicans or muslims or black people for absolutely no reason, don't you think that would get shut down just as quickly?  And would you complain about it in that situation, too?

P.S. - Opposing prejudice isn't political.  Making up a derogatory word to label people who oppose prejudice and blaming THEM for ruining everything? THAT'S political.

P.P.S.  Every member of the human race has a responsibility to treat the people around them with the consideration and respect they deserve. Not just neurotypical people or any other privileged group, ALL good people.  If your primary interest in VR is escaping that responsibility, you should probably seek mental help yourself.

P.P.P.S. - I hope you realize that responsibility extends to any SHARED VR Spaces as much as it does the real world, so if you don't want to get banned from those spaces (with no refund), you'd better exercise a little "political correctness" while you're there.  (Or just stick to SteamVR, since they don't have any objections to bigotry over there.)

I'm afraid you and your bucketful of isms shouldn't be in VR. Mental constipation and political correctness are a heady mix - liable to result in a naivety that borders on absurdity.

Shooting, stabbing, blowing up people for no good reason (there are very good reasons if you're mentally ill) are manifestations of mental illness, and no amount of political correctness can hide that fact. I am not responsible for crazy people. The only the responsibility governments have for crazy people is to lock them up or see that they are not a danger to the public. Sure, not all the mentally ill are psychotic, but there is sufficient mental imbalance in the mind of the sufferer to make neuro-typical Jack and Jill wary of going up that hill with mentally unbalanced companion.

'Neuro divergent people'. You make it sound like a life-style choice.

I think you just made his point with this nonsense. 

I get your point @AndyW1384.

Its just from reading about what it actually was, im getting a sense of overreaction, I understand that the main advocate for the shutdown was a father who lost his son to a brutal police beating (he was mentally ill), but a possessed demon girl in a clearly grotesque American Horror Story Assylum style psych ward?

About the attraction:

"After viewing a very tongue-in-cheek video that clearly depicted the danger as a telekinetically powerful, demonically possessed patient, guests were led down a hall, seated, and strapped into chairs fitted with physical effects that were synchronized to the action they were about to see. They were then fitted with a VR headset and noise-cancelling headphones. Once the experience began, guests became a patient, strapped into a wheelchair, at the mercy of the staff that were trying to maintain control of a hospital as Katie, the monster, continued her attack."

"According to multiple sources, including the Orange County Register and Los Angeles Times: “Mental health advocates nationwide emailed Knott’s and Cedar Fair administrators expressing their concern over the last week, that the portrayal of a possessed girl in a hospital as part of a virtual-reality horror show stigmatizes and denigrates individuals with mental illnesses.”

Then a quite funny comment:

While the advocates for mental illness were loud and clear with Cedar Fair, we at HorrorBuzz feel that the real victims have not been heard. The real victim here is being overlooked. How do the demonically possessed and those with telekinetic powers feel in being used as a device for horror? Every year, countless caricatures of demonic possession, devils, and demonic monsters are used as a device to instill fear in guests paying for a frightful experience. We reached out to representatives from the Church of Satan, whose devotees actually are ridiculed and stigmatized on an annual basis during Halloween to get their perspective.


I pose a challenge to this:

What about games the glorify violence and war? Why arent these getting banned? Where you can walk up to a person and shoot them in the head in 100's of ways and get points? Where its "cool" to be a criminal and shoot police officers with bazookas?