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Scawen
Up and Coming
June 6, 2014

Minimum requirement Windows 7 for DK2?

Hi there, I'm the developer of Live for Speed - http://www.lfs.net

We have an Oculus Rift version available in test patch form as you can see on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=5335

Why I'm posting here is because I was disappointed to read in the DK2 FAQ that the minimum requirement for a Windows PC is Windows 7:
https://support.oculus.com/hc/en-us/articles/201835987-Oculus-Rift-Development-Kit-2-FAQ

I believe this, if true, would be a bad mistake so that's why I want to discuss it here. My reasoning is simple enough and I use our own project as an example.

Live for Speed (aka LFS) uses DX9. We don't want to move to a later version because some of our users run LFS in Wine which supports up to DX9, and some of our users have XP. We don't need any features of later versions of Direct X so it makes sense to stick with DX9. Using later versions would alienate some of our users for no good reason.

However, Microsoft has disabled the ability to use a debug version of DX9 on Windows 7 (or later). So, as a programmer who needs debug output, I am forced to stay on XP. I prefer XP anyway, but that is beside the point. I don't have a choice. I do have a separate hard drive I can plug in to run Windows 7 if needed, but that is a bit of messing around I would prefer not to do.

Windows XP obviously supports USB and has great graphical output, so I can't think of a genuine reason why a Rift should need Windows 7 to operate. I hope that it will be possible to install and use it on XP. I have ordered my DK2 and will be upset if it doesn't work on the computer that I use for development every day. It's going to be hard to develop the LFS support for DK2 if I have to swap hard drives every five minutes to test each change.

I asked technical support about this and got the reply "The development kit may work on in Windows XP. However we are only testing, and officially supporting, Windows 7 and later."

This reply is a bit too vague for me. I really need to know that it WILL work on XP. As far as I know, the Oculus examples use DX9 shaders. So doesn't that suggest that XP should be supported? I think it is a simple and worthwhile thing to just test every now and then, that the Oculus drivers still work on XP and that no Windows 7 specific functions have been used by mistake.

    23 replies

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    ScawenAuthor
    Up and Coming
    July 30, 2014
    "cybereality" wrote:
    @scawen: You may be able to get DK2 to work (in some capacity) on Windows XP. However, to use all the features I believe we will require a modern operating system.

    My DK2 has arrived, pleased I was quick to order.

    But unfortunately on Windows XP I can't even install the drivers. The run-time installer just says something like "Windows 7 or later is required". It's a pity really, as it seems quite obvious that XP / DirectX 9 would be able to do everything the Rift has to offer.

    I'd be really grateful if you could give me a reason why you were unable to support XP. You haven't given any kind of reason at all up to now. If there was a genuine reason, it might do something to reduce the feeling of disappointment. At the moment I feel like you just couldn't be bothered to spend 2 minutes to test on XP, so you disabled it for no reason. Hope you see what I mean. :(

    Anyway, now I have to dig up that old Windows 7 drive and plug it into my computer, to try out this DK2 and see what I can do with that SDK.

    By the way, I do have a reason for using XP. It's not some crazy nostalgia, although in my opinion it is still the easiest to use and best version of Windows. I have to use it since MS disabled the ability to debug DirectX 9 on Windows 7. So they left me no choice. DX9 is great because it allows LFS to be run on Linux or Macintosh using Wine, so expanding our user base.
    Live for Speed - www.lfs.net
    klyonline
    Participant
    August 14, 2014
    I am agree with scawen. If it's possible use DK2 with windows xp, why is the runtime installation forbbiden? A warning message would be enought, I think.
    Gypsy816
    Up and Coming
    August 15, 2014
    FYI - we don’t support XP with the new runtime or DK2.
    Oculus Community Manager - kweh!
    ScawenAuthor
    Up and Coming
    August 15, 2014
    Great, telling us what we already knew.
    "scawen" wrote:
    I'd be really grateful if you could give me a reason why you were unable to support XP.

    That's what we are asking. Read before you type.

    EDIT : Sorry, a bit harsh to you, didn't realise you are new. Welcome! Yeah, we knew it didn't work on XP, but were wondering why, what is the actual reason? Is there a reason? So I was momentarily annoyed by your post after we waited two weeks for a reply to what seems a reasonable question. Good luck in the new job!
    Live for Speed - www.lfs.net
    kojack
    kojack
    Honored Contributor
    August 15, 2014
    "scawen" wrote:
    However, Microsoft has disabled the ability to use a debug version of DX9 on Windows 7 (or later). So, as a programmer who needs debug output, I am forced to stay on XP. I prefer XP anyway, but that is beside the point. I don't have a choice. I do have a separate hard drive I can plug in to run Windows 7 if needed, but that is a bit of messing around I would prefer not to do.

    You can re-enable dx9 debugging on windows 7 by changing the permissions of a registry key entry:
    http://www.gamedev.net/topic/644399-d3d9-64-bit-debug-runtime
    I just tested it, after changing the key's permissions I've got dx9 debug output back in visual studio.
    (Not sure what the side effects may be)
    Author: Oculus Monitor , Auto Oculus Touch , Forum Dark Mode , Phantom Touch Remover , X-Plane Fixer Hardware: Threadripper 1950x, MSI Gaming Trio 2080TI, Asrock X399 Taich Headsets: Wrap 1200VR, DK1, DK2, CV1, Rift-S, GearVR, Go, Quest, Quest 2, Reverb G2, Quest 3
    ScawenAuthor
    Up and Coming
    August 16, 2014
    Thanks, kojack. In fact I do have debug info now, since I've been back in Windows 7. I don't know what made it come back but the debug messages are there.

    Still, I can move around a lot quicker in XP and also it allows LFS to go full screen on a surface representing two monitors, something that was disabled from later versions of Windows.

    I have no idea why the Oculus people don't just answer this simple question... why don't the drivers run on XP? XP could clearly deal with input and output for a Rift. Maybe there's a good reason. If so, please tell us. If not, then let the drivers install on XP.
    Live for Speed - www.lfs.net
    Anonymous
    August 16, 2014
    I agree, the Oculus support team should be more active towards content developers.

    XP (and Vista) display manager lacking the possibility to rotate screens natively would seem to be one reason, as it is required by the DK2. Some graphics card drivers can circumvent this, but all of them don't offer an option for monitor rotation in XP.

    Good to hear you got DX9 debug working in W7.
    WG1
    Up and Coming
    August 17, 2014
    Could this be a reason?

    Windows XP: Support for Windows XP ended on April 8, 2014. This means an unsupported version of Windows will no longer receive software updates from Windows Update:

    •Windows Update will no provide security updates that can help protect your PC from harmful viruses, spyware, and other malicious software, which can steal your personal information.
    •Windows Update will also no longer provide the latest software updates to improve the reliability of Windows--new drivers for your hardware and more.
    ScawenAuthor
    Up and Coming
    August 17, 2014
    No, that is not a reason. Oculus Rift drivers aren't supplied by Microsoft as part of a Windows update.

    What mtrx suggested, that is a possible reason.

    You don't just disable your software from working on older operating systems purely because Microsoft ended support for it. You disable it either because there is an actual reason, something on the later OS that the drivers need to use, or because you can't be bothered to spend 5 minutes to check it works on the older (but still very good and widely used) OS.

    So far Oculus Rift people aren't brave enough to tell us the reason, if there is one.
    Live for Speed - www.lfs.net
    Anonymous
    Participant
    August 26, 2014
    First, understand that I'm not speaking ex cathedra, that this is my own opinion and not Oculus's or Facebook's.

    In terms of money, brainpower, time, tradeoffs, research, business partnerships and pretty much everything, which do you think is more expensive? That a company (not just Oculus but literally any company) spend these things supporting an OS and APIs that not even the OS's parent company supports? Or that people move on to OS's and API's developed for the second decade of the 21st century? Presumably, if they're working with the DK2, they've at least moved on to hardware made in this decade.

    Speaking about the requirements for the SDK in particular, there simply isn't an easy way to do much of what we want in Windows XP. The driver infrastructure isn't there. The latency infrastructure isn't there (it's barely there in Windows 7.) USB 3.0 stuff, if we ever need it, is even shaky at best in Windows 7.

    The numbers of legitimate, properly licensed installs of Windows XP will be below 1% by the time I finish this email, source: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey Do you really feel it's worth Oculus's time focusing on an ancient OS rather than looking towards the future?
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