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Up and Coming
April 7, 2013

No one else using PSMove?

Razer, Kinect, Myo, Wii... but no one considers the PS Move?

I picked one up a few months ago specifically to work with the Rift on my computer.

I chose it in preference to other options for these reasons:
-accurate positional tracking (when within the camera volume and not completely occluded)
-fast response
-no wires

Kinect -- Fantastic idea, best current option for tracking a body, and this will be a technique used heavily in the future -- probably as one facet of a multifaceted solution (like the PS4 cam). But it's too crude and slow for bringing your influence into a virtual world.

Razer -- The best I can figure is that this is worse in most ways than a PS Move in each hand. Tethered, short range, and reports on positional accuracy seem inconsistent.

The key thing I want is a "virtual grip", with low latency and high accuracy. The camera-tracked-globe helps greatly with low latency and positional accuracy. An analog trigger provides an abstraction of grip (not ideal), but it's a reliable mechanical control. The weak point is in orientation tracking, and being out-of-camera. It would be possible to use two cameras (or more), though processing requirements and complexity of sensor-fusion goes up. I'm still not sure what's up with the orientation decalibrating on me... Some games seem to track it fine and others don't. The PSMoveAPI I'm using on the PC seems to suffer more drift than I see from Sony, but I'm still experimenting. The potential seems there, anyhow.

And Myo... no one has one yet, right? It has a cool factor, but I am very skeptical about the reliability and accuracy of finger-actuation. Also, how accurate does it track hand position/orientation in space? It might be fine for doing relative swipes and coarse gestures, but *locating* your hand correctly, so that your virtual hand corresponds to the real one... I have my doubts about it's value here.

There are other like LEAP -- again, great stuff... but relevance to a virtual world? Possibly for an application involving intricate hand work at a table -- no action or large motions; also latency and errors processing the complex data.

I'm no PS Move fanboy. It's gimmicky and not nearly enough... but for a virtual grip it seems better than the other readily available options (with the exception some specific uses!).

    31 replies

    Up and Coming
    April 28, 2013
    I know what you mean here.

    The hydra is great in some regards, but yes, the wires do get in the way, and it's awkward at times. (From my own tests though, it won't 'drift' much; The magnetic tracking is quite stable, it's just not always reporting what it should.)

    Using something like the hydra with supplementary tracking would be good. But here too we can argue about what kind of tracking. XD

    The System the move uses is quite adaptable, since the camera doing the tracking is literally a specialised form of webcam.

    The Wii's tracking system on the other hand, has large chunks of the basic tracking logic in the hardware itself;
    The Wii reports the position of the markers it's tracking - you don't need any extra code running on your system to figure these out. (But you do need extra code to figure out depth and orientation data from these values.)

    The Wii tracking's biggest problems are having a field of view of only about 28 degrees, and the inability to usefully track more than 4 points, or to even reliably distinguish which point is which.

    However, it's been demonstrated repeatedly that you can reverse the logic used by the Wii design, which can be interesting. (The wii design assumes you're using a static marker to track a moving camera. But of course, you can just as well track a moving marker using a static camera. Or even track a moving marker using a moving camera if you're ambitious... XD)

    I've considered trying to build a hybrid tracking marker in the past, that contains both RGB leds (useful for tracking by the PS eye camera, or similar techniques) and IR leds (which can be tracked by a wii remote.)

    Which is a better option I guess rather depends on what you're tracking. Due to the hardware, the Wii's camera is probably less computationally demanding, but the limitations in what it can track (specifically the inability to unambiguously track more than 4 points) could be quite crippling.
    I intended to use a Wii remote for positional head tracking though, but it does all depend.

    (Just as an aside, I've found the way Wii motionplus games use a combination of sensor bar position readings combined with what is essentially dead reckoning quite interesting... It's interesting how long you can reliably track rotation using just a gyroscope and intermittent 2d position readings...)

    Still, I guess given how all this stuff works, the move controller itself is maybe the least interesting part of the way the PS3 does motion tracking.
    The camera does most of the work, after all. XD (And the sensors on the controller are pretty similar to any other.

    Here's some old videos:
    (Why do I get the strange sensation at least some of these people are on this forum? XD)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9AViYmfWR4 - PS eye tracking. (Before the moved existed.)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PtoxKDcCXc - Some more PS eye stuff. (probably from the same lecture)

    Wii based tracking of IR sources using 2 controllers:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT6aQN-lwmo&NR=1

    Wii controller tracking using a 4 LED custom 'sensor bar' replacement:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyvIlKSA0BA&feature=related


    3d Tracking without any markers:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dln257k2Sc&feature=fvw

    Oh, and this one is good for a laugh (And useful in it's own way too. XD):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUBKa7fGcY&feature=related

    (It's not as visible as I remember what's actually going on in that video, but the description should make it clearer.)

    There's some odd things people have tried in the past... XD
    Up and Coming
    May 1, 2013
    So in theory, for a custom-built game that has a range of weapons, you could have an array of move controllers attached to accessories, like the following, to swap between weapons. These could be stored on a utility belt or something if you want to go next level..

    ie. Pick up the pistol to swap to the pistol in game.

    http://us.playstation.com/ps3/accessories/playstation-move-shooting-attachment-ps3.html

    Or swap to the rifle to swap to the rifle in game.

    http://us.playstation.com/ps3/accessories/playstation-move-sharp-shooter-ps3.html
    or
    http://hyperkin.com/playstation-3/ps3-attachments/ps-move-ak-striker-hyperkin.html

    Even boxing gloves for hand to hand combat if you're too lazy to just hold controllers.. This would make it hard to play a game with multiple weapons though.

    http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Boxing-Gloves-Playstation-Move-3/dp/B003XPC7M8/ref=sr_1_19?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1367375803&sr=1-19

    Or use any of the following to use different weapons / utilites for their various purposes...

    http://www.amazon.com/PlayStation-Move-14-1-Pack-3/dp/B004JMSBGU/ref=pd_sim_vg_5
    http://hyperkin.com/playstation-3/ps3-attachments/ps3-hyperkin-sports-victory-set.html
    atavenerAuthor
    Up and Coming
    May 1, 2013
    "AleksBeer" wrote:
    So in theory, for a custom-built game that has a range of weapons, you could have an array of move controllers attached to accessories, like the following, to swap between weapons. These could be stored on a utility belt or something if you want to go next level..


    Nice thinking! Oh man... I think I'd like to see someone with a Rift on their face, wildly defending themselves with a "sword" against some unseen opponent... move controllers (discarded, empty weapons) littering the floor...

    Stranger yet would be when they see one of those discarded guns rise up, disembodied, aiming at them... because supper is ready and someone came into the room to get them out of VR. ;)
    Up and Coming
    May 1, 2013
    "atavener" wrote:
    "AleksBeer" wrote:
    So in theory, for a custom-built game that has a range of weapons, you could have an array of move controllers attached to accessories, like the following, to swap between weapons. These could be stored on a utility belt or something if you want to go next level..


    Nice thinking! Oh man... I think I'd like to see someone with a Rift on their face, wildly defending themselves with a "sword" against some unseen opponent... move controllers (discarded, empty weapons) littering the floor...

    Stranger yet would be when they see one of those discarded guns rise up, disembodied, aiming at them... because supper is ready and someone came into the room to get them out of VR. ;)


    Hahaha you got it buddy! There'd obviously have to be a mechanism for telling the game you have swapped weapons or something, like pressing select on the move etc.
    Up and Coming
    May 1, 2013
    Lol. That's an amusing idea...

    Although if you look through sony's old videos, they were doing sword demos with a brightly coloured foam rod...

    The move can seem a little redundant sometimes when you look at their older tech demonstrations... XD
    Participant
    May 4, 2013
    We've been using the PS Move for absolute positional tracking of the head for Project Holodeck. Then Razer Hydra for local 6dof tracking of hands. We've had this integrated with the Rift since January. We're releasing a game shortly on these forums with this functionality, so you can try it out with all the weapon combos we've been working on. It feels kind of like some of the scenarios described in this thread. Hope you guys dig it, will keep you posted!
    -J
    James Iliff, Project Holodeck | @jimbo2go | http://www.projectholodeck.com
    Up and Coming
    May 5, 2013
    "jimbo2go" wrote:
    We've been using the PS Move for absolute positional tracking of the head for Project Holodeck. Then Razer Hydra for local 6dof tracking of hands. We've had this integrated with the Rift since January. We're releasing a game shortly on these forums with this functionality, so you can try it out with all the weapon combos we've been working on. It feels kind of like some of the scenarios described in this thread. Hope you guys dig it, will keep you posted!
    -J


    Sounds great! I have two PSMove cameras and dual Move wands (the ones with the light orbs. I also have the navigator but I'm sure the Hydra will be taking over it's duties.). Can't wait to try out your stuff!
    Inspiring
    May 5, 2013
    So what exactly is required to do positional tracking with the PS Move?

    A Playstation Eye (for PS3) camera and a PS Move controller? Is that it?
    Up and Coming
    May 5, 2013
    "sven" wrote:
    So what exactly is required to do positional tracking with the PS Move?

    A Playstation Eye (for PS3) camera and a PS Move controller? Is that it?


    Strictly speaking the Move controller itself is almost redundant. Position tracking is done by tracking the sphere on the move controller. The only advantage the move controller has for this purpose is that you can control the RGB value of the sphere, which can make tracking easier.

    But sony already demonstrated ages ago that you can track any brightly coloured object reasonably well.

    The only other thing you gain with a move controller over just using an unpowered coloured marker is the orientation of the controller, and some buttons.

    As for the PS eye camera itself, think of it as a webcam. - Everything that works with it can in theory also work with a webcam. - The PS eye has an edge though in that it can record at 75-187 fps or more, while a normal webcam can struggle to maintain 30 fps stably.

    That may not sound that important, but it can make a huge difference when you're using a camera to track moving objects...
    Inspiring
    May 13, 2013
    "jimbo2go" wrote:
    We've been using the PS Move for absolute positional tracking of the head for Project Holodeck. Then Razer Hydra for local 6dof tracking of hands.


    I have a question regarding your setup: You have this completely untethered solution with the laptop in a backpack and the Hydra base mounted to the helmet. But where is the PS Eye camera located and how does it transmit its data about the two PS Move controllers to the laptop? Do you use wireless USB?