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PatimPatam
Up and Coming
January 13, 2014

Should Oculus bundle motion controllers with every Rift?

Hi there!

I've mentioned this a couple times back around September, but now that it's official that Oculus VR is focusing on a seated experience and that external optical tracking looks likely for CV1 i think it's become relevant again..

Also posted a comment on Reddit the other day, just thought i would create a new thread here to see if we can get a bit more feedback.
http://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/1uw0nl/the_next_big_hurdle_for_vr_getting_your_hands_in

Here's a slightly edited version of my reply to the OP:
"PatimPatam" wrote:

Basically, i believe that the company in the best position to put our hands inside the game is actually Oculus VR itself.

I would love to have an affordable haptic feedback glove, but for the 1st generation of consumer VR i don't think we really need one; a motion controller similar to the PS-Move but where each finger rests in a separate analog button (with optional force feedback) should be enough to simulate our hands. For instance I can imagine it having the shape of a prism or a dumbbell, with several LEDs on both ends.

Having already an external camera for positional tracking this type of controller should be very cheap to produce for Oculus (basically just plastic, a few LEDs, a bluetooth transmitter, and one of the awesome IMUs they already developed to use inside the headset).

I think Oculus could perfectly bundle 2 of these controllers with every Rift sold, without adding more than $40 or $50 to the final price.

I know it may not sound like super-exciting high-tech at first, but the fact that EVERY Rift user would have the same VR input would make a MASSIVE difference. Developers could create VR games and applications with very intuitive interfaces from day 1 knowing that there is a standard input shared by all users.


And here's a very rough sketch i made to have an idea of what i mean. On top of that there should probably be a strap that goes around the back of your hand, so the controller stays in place even with the palm open.



Also optionally there could be a thumbstick instead of the thumb button, but i don't really think it's necessary since i believe avatar movement/rotation could be archived in more intuitive ways, like pressing a button and using positional tracking (lean forward to move forward for instance). Thumbsticks for movement have become quite standard between gamers but i don't think they are that intuitive for the average person.

More on that here:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=18694


Obviously the main technical difficulty with this solution would be how to differentiate controller LEDs from HMD LEDs. The more trivial approach would probably be using a visible spectrum camera instead of infrared and have different colors for each controller but that has it's own set of disadvantages.. anyway i think with the team of computer vision experts at Oculus this should be certainly doable.

I'm also quite certain that a system like this (if used at an optimal distance from the camera) could be much more accurate than alternatives like magnetic tracking (mainly due to the magnetic distortion problem).

At the same time systems like the STEM or PrioVR could still be useful for scenarios where the user wants to move around with more freedom within a confined space, or inside omni threadmills.


I've seen quite a few people complaining about the external camera solution.. Am i the only one INSANELY excited about it?? I believe this could potentially bring us one step closer to the Oasis console.

I honestly think this should be a no-brainer for Oculus, and actually i'm betting they already have some hand-controller internal prototypes; then again maybe i'm wrong :-)

Thoughts?


EDIT:

Like i mentioned later in this thread, if occlusion is too troublesome to sort out with only the existing front camera, a 2nd inside-out camera with a wide FOV could be used on the headset to help track the controllers. If the HMD is blocked by the controllers, the relative position between the external camera and the HMD could be calculated integrating the relative position between camera and controllers and the relative position between controllers and HMD.

Maybe this inside-out camera could be used at the same time for pass-through functionality similar to Gear VR. Obviously this would add both weight and cost to the HMD, but i don't see it as a show-stopper.

    132 replies

    Show previous replies
    PatimPatamAuthor
    Up and Coming
    January 18, 2014
    Very good points Alejux and Tbone, finally the type of answers i was expecting from a developer's forum.. (and finally someone answering my very explicit question in the title!).

    Now that the Crystal Cove has proven that we've got the basics covered, i think that if there's any chance of making this happen for CV1, Oculus should make it its number 1 priority.

    Again, i'm fairly confident they must be already working on it, but maybe not ready to talk about it.
    Perhaps by GDC 2014?
    Leahy
    Participant
    January 18, 2014
    Well Tbone basically said most of what I wanted to say albeit probably better than I could. I want to eventually buy an omni and a STEM but skipped the kickstarters because at this point I have a hard time imagining the amount of integration they will have in games vs their hefty prices.

    If Oculus did decide to sell a pair of simple controllers I'd say just let it be optional. As well, I forget who mentioned having to hold a controller when you're not holding anything in VR is undesirable, and if you have a button for each finger then it should be obvious the have it attached to the hand by velcro or somesuch as I was planning to with my Hydra if ever I found a game that could make use of it.

    I digress, what really would be great is if at least more than a few indie developers were convinced that it would be worth their time to allow free movement of the hands in a game but it's sort of a chicken-egg issue. There will be numerous 3rd parties who will create really cool controllers but until someone with clout like Oculus decides to set a standard (even still it'll take time) I have a hard time seeing how we can cross this chasm of control acceptance.

    I for one have always hated using a keyboard for gaming so have used different controllers in the left hand with a multi-buttoned mouse. However it never ceases to astound me just how stuck 99% of gamers are on either keyboard/mouse or PS/xbox style controller. How many games even let you walk using analog while using the mouse to aim? I tried playing GTA IV with my wheel on PC and it isn't even possible.
    mrgreen72
    Inspiring
    January 18, 2014
    I don't have source links to back me up (it's easier this way) but I remember hearing Brendan mention they were working internally on VR input. They very much realize user input is as important as vision for VR but we probably shouldn't expect anything for CV1.

    Hopefully someone solves VR input sooner than later, because my main issue using the Rift right now isn't resolution, screen door or motion blur, it's controlling my avatar. I'm really glad they've solved all those other issues and I can't wait to upgrade my DK1 but turning around and strafing with analog sticks for more than 10 minutes is a ticket straight to puke town.

    Of course we all wish we could freely use our hands and that's the dream, but first, how do we solve movement in VR space?
    Tbone
    Up and Coming
    January 18, 2014
    Venturebeat Article with Brendan Iribe

    Iribe: These things take a lot of time. There’s a lot of work involved. I don’t think we’re going to see super-low-latency, perfectly accurate hand tracking or finger tracking for a while. We’re certainly working on a lot of things internally. When we get closer to a point where we can say, “Yes, the next version will have this feature,” we’ll talk about it.

    A lot of times, the internal R&D doesn’t pan out. You go down one route, you find that it doesn’t work the way you planned, and you have to switch and go down another one. We don’t want to talk about internal R&D until we’re confident we can ship it.

    We would like to tackle input. We’ve often said that right now, VR vision is the first step. Really, it’s only half of the VR experience. You need to get VR input, but what is that? Is it a keyboard and a mouse, a game pad? It may be in the beginning, but in the longer term, there are going to be more natural input devices for VR.

    The keyboard and mouse and game pad allow you to have these superhuman inputs, but they aren’t natural. It’s obvious, when you put on the Oculus VR headset — people put their hands up and they say, “When am I gonna see my hands?” It’s something we’re excited to have, and we’re working on it for the future. It’s a longer-term problem.
    The Furious Angels - an Oculus Rift Online Gaming Community!
    alejux
    Up and Coming
    January 18, 2014
    "Tbone" wrote:
    Venturebeat Article with Brendan Iribe


    Doesn't sound like they're giving that much importance to the VR input for CV1.
    PatimPatamAuthor
    Up and Coming
    January 19, 2014
    "Leahy" wrote:
    Well Tbone basically said most of what I wanted to say albeit probably better than I could.

    "Leahy" wrote:
    If Oculus did decide to sell a pair of simple controllers I'd say just let it be optional.

    Hmm sorry but that sounds kind of contradictory to me, i believe Tbone's main point was that we need to have a unified platform.


    "mrgreen72" wrote:
    Of course we all wish we could freely use our hands and that's the dream, but first, how do we solve movement in VR space?

    Did you read this thread over MTBS? Some very good ideas over there (i started implementing some myself).
    http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=18694


    "alejux" wrote:
    "Tbone" wrote:
    Venturebeat Article with Brendan Iribe

    Doesn't sound like they're giving that much importance to the VR input for CV1.

    Yep, the part where they are already working on this internally seems real, the part where they plan to use this on CV1 is probably just my wishful thinking..

    But that's kind of the reason i created this thread, to let people (and Oculus) know why i think this would be such an important feature to include. People are obsessing about 1440p panels, having full 360 degree tracking and other things which i believe are MUCH less important than having integrated motion controls.


    I agree that input is a very difficult problem and that it should be a long-term goal; I also heard Palmer mention somewhere that they will tackle the issue of VR input only if they can build the best VR input device on the market (or something along these lines).

    As much as i would like to have to best VR input possible, i kind of disagree with that premise. My point is that even if they were the most basic motion controls possible (think PS Move), as long as they were reliable and accurate enough, the benefits of selling everything as a package would be absolutely worth it, for both developers and end-users.

    This could make the difference between games with intuitive and immersive interactions like the Gallery being the exception, and games with intuitive and immersive interactions being the standard.
    Zackarios
    Up and Coming
    January 22, 2014
    It would be great if they could release a VR input device with CV1, but as much as it's logical, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen. I'm sure they will release something later down the line as I agree that a unified system is very important for the complete experience.

    But for now, I guess we have the STEM system, which IMO is more than adequate for CV1. It even comes with motion trackers to put on any parts of your body, like your legs, to allow for full simulation of body movement. Obviously it's not the best solution there could be, I think we need to go down the route of VR gloves, as well as having a physical device to hold to simulate the feeling of holding something in the virtual world (like the stem system controllers). But I don't see VR gloves happening any time soon. The issue with the STEM system is that it will be so damn expensive, and obviously, it won't be a standard unified system that developers will know everyone has.

    All in all though, VR gloves with haptic feedback would be the ultimate solution, add a pair of STEM system-like motion controllers and we're good to go.

    I think Oculus should be working on VR gloves right now, if they're not they need to get started on it right away. But for a feasible solution for CV1, developing some straight forward as-cheap-as-possible motion controllers would be the most logical solution for the time they have.
    alejux
    Up and Coming
    January 22, 2014
    "Zackarios" wrote:
    It would be great if they could release a VR input device with CV1, but as much as it's logical, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen. I'm sure they will release something later down the line as I agree that a unified system is very important for the complete experience.

    But for now, I guess we have the STEM system, which IMO is more than adequate for CV1. It even comes with motion trackers to put on any parts of your body, like your legs, to allow for full simulation of body movement. Obviously it's not the best solution there could be, I think we need to go down the route of VR gloves, as well as having a physical device to hold to simulate the feeling of holding something in the virtual world (like the stem system controllers). But I don't see VR gloves happening any time soon. The issue with the STEM system is that it will be so damn expensive, and obviously, it won't be a standard unified system that developers will know everyone has.

    All in all though, VR gloves with haptic feedback would be the ultimate solution, add a pair of STEM system-like motion controllers and we're good to go.

    I think Oculus should be working on VR gloves right now, if they're not they need to get started on it right away. But for a feasible solution for CV1, developing some straight forward as-cheap-as-possible motion controllers would be the most logical solution for the time they have.


    The problem with STEM, is that it's extremely expensive for an input device. You're talking about $220, which is nearly the price of the Rift itself. While this may not be a problem for a lot of the enthusiasts in this forum, it is a very big problem for the average user who will want to just buy the Rift so they can experience VR.

    The problem here is not that we can or can't have a good VR experience if we buy STEM. The problem, as I see it, is that developers won't be able to create interactive VR experiences (where the user interacts with the environment), because there will be a bunch of STEM-less and Hydra-less peasants using keyboard and mice running their content. It's like if someone asked you to do a cool graphical interface, considering some people will have mouse, others will have keyboard and others will use voice commands.
    vrfanboy37
    Up and Coming
    January 23, 2014
    They should include a hand unit of some kind, but if it's not ready by cv1 I won't cry. Personally I like the Peregrin gaming glove with leds added to it. Should give the best of all worlds. only problem is leds need to be fixed and glove is stretchy. don't know how to overcome that or I'd be trying it out. ir cameras aren't in short suply
    Tbone
    Up and Coming
    January 23, 2014
    "alejux" wrote:
    The problem with STEM, is that it's extremely expensive for an input device. You're talking about $220, which is nearly the price of the Rift itself. While this may not be a problem for a lot of the enthusiasts in this forum, it is a very big problem for the average user who will want to just buy the Rift so they can experience VR.

    The problem here is not that we can or can't have a good VR experience if we buy STEM. The problem, as I see it, is that developers won't be able to create interactive VR experiences (where the user interacts with the environment), because there will be a bunch of STEM-less and Hydra-less peasants using keyboard and mice running their content.

    I have a separate folder for Rift demos that also use a Hydra, and that folder is VERY SMALL compared to demos that use a mouse/game pad. I certainly don't have $220 worth of demos.

    As a matter of fact, here is the complete list of Hydra-compatible VR apps. That's 38 out of 400 apps. Out of all of those, I only see two official full-fledged products: The Gallery and MakeVR. Everything else is mods/hacks/smaller demos. That's less than 10% of everything that's known to be under development, and even less than that for things that are actually coming to market.

    The preference is a solution that is included with the Oculus SDK so that every developer working on a Rift experience will simultaneously automatically have support for the VR input controller.
    The Furious Angels - an Oculus Rift Online Gaming Community!
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