Skip to main content
PatimPatam
Up and Coming
January 13, 2014

Should Oculus bundle motion controllers with every Rift?

Hi there!

I've mentioned this a couple times back around September, but now that it's official that Oculus VR is focusing on a seated experience and that external optical tracking looks likely for CV1 i think it's become relevant again..

Also posted a comment on Reddit the other day, just thought i would create a new thread here to see if we can get a bit more feedback.
http://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/1uw0nl/the_next_big_hurdle_for_vr_getting_your_hands_in

Here's a slightly edited version of my reply to the OP:
"PatimPatam" wrote:

Basically, i believe that the company in the best position to put our hands inside the game is actually Oculus VR itself.

I would love to have an affordable haptic feedback glove, but for the 1st generation of consumer VR i don't think we really need one; a motion controller similar to the PS-Move but where each finger rests in a separate analog button (with optional force feedback) should be enough to simulate our hands. For instance I can imagine it having the shape of a prism or a dumbbell, with several LEDs on both ends.

Having already an external camera for positional tracking this type of controller should be very cheap to produce for Oculus (basically just plastic, a few LEDs, a bluetooth transmitter, and one of the awesome IMUs they already developed to use inside the headset).

I think Oculus could perfectly bundle 2 of these controllers with every Rift sold, without adding more than $40 or $50 to the final price.

I know it may not sound like super-exciting high-tech at first, but the fact that EVERY Rift user would have the same VR input would make a MASSIVE difference. Developers could create VR games and applications with very intuitive interfaces from day 1 knowing that there is a standard input shared by all users.


And here's a very rough sketch i made to have an idea of what i mean. On top of that there should probably be a strap that goes around the back of your hand, so the controller stays in place even with the palm open.



Also optionally there could be a thumbstick instead of the thumb button, but i don't really think it's necessary since i believe avatar movement/rotation could be archived in more intuitive ways, like pressing a button and using positional tracking (lean forward to move forward for instance). Thumbsticks for movement have become quite standard between gamers but i don't think they are that intuitive for the average person.

More on that here:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=18694


Obviously the main technical difficulty with this solution would be how to differentiate controller LEDs from HMD LEDs. The more trivial approach would probably be using a visible spectrum camera instead of infrared and have different colors for each controller but that has it's own set of disadvantages.. anyway i think with the team of computer vision experts at Oculus this should be certainly doable.

I'm also quite certain that a system like this (if used at an optimal distance from the camera) could be much more accurate than alternatives like magnetic tracking (mainly due to the magnetic distortion problem).

At the same time systems like the STEM or PrioVR could still be useful for scenarios where the user wants to move around with more freedom within a confined space, or inside omni threadmills.


I've seen quite a few people complaining about the external camera solution.. Am i the only one INSANELY excited about it?? I believe this could potentially bring us one step closer to the Oasis console.

I honestly think this should be a no-brainer for Oculus, and actually i'm betting they already have some hand-controller internal prototypes; then again maybe i'm wrong :-)

Thoughts?


EDIT:

Like i mentioned later in this thread, if occlusion is too troublesome to sort out with only the existing front camera, a 2nd inside-out camera with a wide FOV could be used on the headset to help track the controllers. If the HMD is blocked by the controllers, the relative position between the external camera and the HMD could be calculated integrating the relative position between camera and controllers and the relative position between controllers and HMD.

Maybe this inside-out camera could be used at the same time for pass-through functionality similar to Gear VR. Obviously this would add both weight and cost to the HMD, but i don't see it as a show-stopper.

    132 replies

    Show previous replies
    shindig
    New Participant
    January 30, 2014
    I've been using the kinect and wii controller + nunchuk and it has a gyrometer inside both...can make an entire flying game by just turning the controller different directions and is very fluid.

    I need to get a balance board as I think simply leaning forward, back, left/right would be ideal for moving around, while raycasting from the rift tointeract with the environment and steer...

    Also the range on the wii controllers is more than 40 feet, and you don't need a wii or it's sensor, just the controllers you want to use...

    edit:: Also with the kinect placed a couple feet off the ground you can use footstep motions to drive the character forward, but I notice with the rift on even though you're walking in place you drift since you can't see your surroundings.
    PatimPatamAuthor
    Up and Coming
    January 31, 2014
    "shindig" wrote:
    I've been using the kinect and wii controller + nunchuk and it has a gyrometer inside both...can make an entire flying game by just turning the controller different directions and is very fluid.

    I need to get a balance board as I think simply leaning forward, back, left/right would be ideal for moving around, while raycasting from the rift tointeract with the environment and steer...

    I totally agree, turning using motion controls (gyros-yaw) feels much more intuitive and fluid than using your typical game controller. I'm pretty sure this could also reduce a lot of the motion sickness associated with turning inside VR, since you have a more direct and fine-tuned control over it. To be honest i'm not sure why games that use the Hydra by default, like the Crashland or The Gallery, don't use this method for turning instead of thumbsticks.

    About the Wii balance board, i think it's a great idea too, but keep in mind that once we have positional tracking in the HMD we can easily emulate this just by pressing a button and leaning (and it would work both seating and standing).


    So, simply one button to activate "movement" on the left controller. Once pressed left controller yaw turns avatar (left or right) and HMD positional tracking moves avatar (forward, back, strafe-left, strafe-right). And you still have both hands practically free to do whatever you want with them.

    I can really see something similar to this becoming the standard for movement inside VR; that is once motion controls become the standard input for VR.
    mrgreen72
    Inspiring
    January 31, 2014
    Semi incoherent ramblings likely follow:

    "shindig" wrote:
    I need to get a balance board as I think simply leaning forward, back, left/right would be ideal for moving around, while raycasting from the rift tointeract with the environment and steer...

    "PatimPatam" wrote:
    About the Wii balance board, i think it's a great idea too, but keep in mind that once we have positional tracking in the HMD we can easily emulate this just by pressing a button and leaning (and it would work both seating and standing).

    I also thought it was a great idea and then I actually tried it. YMMV but I thought it felt clumsy, unresponsive and definitely not worth the hassle. It did nothing to help with "presence" or immersion as far as I'm concerned. Leaning your torso would probably work better but then again, like any motion controls, it would need to be flawless. The slightest latency ruins everything because it disconnects you from the experience and we're also used to pressing buttons that work instantaneously and every time.

    "PatimPatam" wrote:
    I totally agree, turning using motion controls (gyros-yaw) feels much more intuitive and fluid than using your typical game controller. I'm pretty sure this could also reduce a lot of the motion sickness associated with turning inside VR, since you have a more direct and fine-tuned control over it. To be honest i'm not sure why games that use the Hydra by default, like the Crashland or The Gallery, don't use this method for turning instead of thumbsticks.

    I'm not convinced turning with gyros instead of a thumbstick would be that much better. Maybe if you could turn 1:1, meaning 90° movement of the controller = 90° turn of your avatar... except that you can't really turn more than 90° that way and how do you recenter anyway?

    So you pretty much have to end up with your wrist acting as an analog stick. It still might be more fluid like you said though. Definitely worth experimenting with.

    Not sure about it being more intuitive though. Well, maybe to newcomers, but don't forget gamers have many years, if not decades of experience working with mice and gamepads. Many of them don't even wanna hear about new control schemes. I'd even say, based on what I read in various forums, that the majority seem perfectly happy with what they have right now. WASD/Mouse for life!

    That's probably why you'll see devs playing it safe at first. One step at a time. I think much better can be done for VR with a simple 360 controller. I have a few ideas I'm working on. Hopefully I can find the time and skills to come up with a demo in the near future. Cloudhead Games are also supposed to come up with something in the next Exploration School update too. Looking forward to that.
    PatimPatamAuthor
    Up and Coming
    January 31, 2014
    "mrgreen72" wrote:
    I also thought it was a great idea and then I actually tried it. YMMV but I thought it felt clumsy, unresponsive and definitely not worth the hassle. It did nothing to help with "presence" or immersion as far as I'm concerned. Leaning your torso would probably work better but then again, like any motion controls, it would need to be flawless. The slightest latency ruins everything because it disconnects you from the experience and we're also used to pressing buttons that work instantaneously and every time.

    Well reading the reports about the Crystal Cove looks like very fast and rock-solid tracking, and it can only get better, so i wouldn't worry too much about that.

    "mrgreen72" wrote:

    So you pretty much have to end up with your wrist acting as an analog stick. It still might be more fluid like you said though. Definitely worth experimenting with.

    Not sure about it being more intuitive though. Well, maybe to newcomers, but don't forget gamers have many years, if not decades of experience working with mice and gamepads. Many of them don't even wanna hear about new control schemes. I'd even say, based on what I read in various forums, that the majority seem perfectly happy with what they have right now. WASD/Mouse for life!

    Yeah the wrist control thing would work similarly to a thumbstick, just more subtle and precise; don't see why typical gamers wouldn't like it too (as long as they can adjust the sensitivity).

    Another option would be using your head for turning, as explained on the MTBS thread i pointed out before, but that has its own set of issues..
    mrgreen72
    Inspiring
    January 31, 2014
    "PatimPatam" wrote:
    Another option would be using your head for turning, as explained on the MTBS thread i pointed out before, but that has its own set of issues..


    Yeah I checked that but unless I missed something what was proposed there didn't really work. Like I said, I do have some stuff regarding that I wanna experiment with. I need to find the time, and energy... As a "married" 42 year old, spending nights and weekends coding isn't an option anymore. :lol:
    PatimPatamAuthor
    Up and Coming
    January 31, 2014
    "mrgreen72" wrote:
    Yeah I checked that but unless I missed something what was proposed there didn't really work. Like I said, I do have some stuff regarding that I wanna experiment with. I need to find the time, and energy... As a "married" 42 year old, spending nights and weekends coding isn't an option anymore. :lol:

    Well I did code a quick mod of the Tuscany demo, and it does kind of work.. the only problem is that it limits certain things you can do. Also i still need to test it with a full body avatar to be sure, and to be able to compare it against other options.

    Haven't found the time so far, similar situation to yours :-P
    shindig
    New Participant
    January 31, 2014
    The kinect isn't terrible for driving the character, and when you put your arms in front of you, you see your arms from fps angle in the oculus, and can look down to see your feet and set all kinds of triggers for switching guns/reloading/etc. In combination with a controller I prefer it to wasd/mouse heh. But it can be laggy if you don't crank up the sdk smoothing. Kinect 2 will be much better when the PC version is released.

    I think kinect+wii-like gyro controllers+oculus has potential. Wish the hydra 2 would come out. We did a kinect+rift vertigo simulator that was fun.

    I'd love to see some openCV stuff with the oculus. I've played around with extreme motion in the past for a simple webcam skeletal tracking to detect poses, it can detect jump, crouch, some swipe gestures and poses without a depth sensor. They have a plugin for unity.
    gravelbeast
    Up and Coming
    February 3, 2014
    IMO the OP's position has been so well argued that the answer is a resounding YES. The next question is: What kind of input device should be the standard?

    I am not an interface designer but let's consider the pros and cons of all types mentioned here.

    Haptic gloves - I just don't see how this is better than a Hydra setup? why do you need to control each finger? How will you walk or do other actions separate from hand movement? The basic thing you need to do with your fingers is to grab; you can do that with buttons on motion sticks.

    The problem with Move and especially Kinect is that they have too few inputs and can't replace normal controllers for more complex actions. They can't be used as the sole input for legacy games, and thus segregate the mother platform instead of reinforcing it.

    You need to move both hands but not each finger - the optimal solution seems to be Hydra style twin sticks. You also need to walk and rotate your body, the optimal solution currently seems to be thumbsticks. (100+ million gamers are familiar with thumbsticks; turning and moving with motions is untested, and you can still implement that even if you have thumbsticks). You also don't want the motion controller to be segregated away from legacy first person games by having too few inputs - so you need as many buttons as the existing gamepads.

    Considering all this, the optimal solution for VR controller 1.0 seems to be:

    Split an Xbox controller or DualShock down the middle and give each half Hydra style motion controls. IOW, Hydra 2.0.

    Maybe not the most elegant, but eminently workable until full immersion becomes practical.

    As far as I can see that's the safest bet for a standard. Hydra style motion is field tested - it works. You get your hands, but unlike gloves or other exotic motion control setups you also have all the legacy buttons and sticks. If the eventual Sony/MS solution involves such controllers they might actually obsolete standard gamepads.
    PatimPatamAuthor
    Up and Coming
    February 3, 2014
    "gravelbeast" wrote:
    Considering all this, the optimal solution for VR controller 1.0 seems to be:

    Split an Xbox controller or DualShock down the middle and give each half Hydra style motion controls. IOW, Hydra 2.0. Maybe not the most elegant, but eminently workable until full immersion becomes practical.

    As far as I can see that's the safest bet for a standard. Hydra style motion is field tested - it works. You get your hands, but unlike gloves or other exotic motion control setups you also have all the legacy buttons and sticks. If the eventual Sony/MS solution involves such controllers they might actually obsolete standard gamepads.

    Hmm i think that's not a bad idea either.

    Would be even better if you could join both parts to form only one gamepad, for games that don't require separate motion controls; unfortunately that was already patented by Sony America :|

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20120302347.pdf
    gravelbeast
    Up and Coming
    February 4, 2014
    Sony really likes to ruin everybody's fun huh? :P

    I have to wonder if people would even want to go back to normal controllers for normal games after using a "MotionShock". Think about it, you can keep your hands anywhere - by your sides, on the armrests. No more cowering like a chipmunk, time to recline like a boss. :)
    Show more replies
    Terms & ConditionsAccessibility statement