Why ODT’s Do Not Support Natural Locomotion

I'm just saying that its more practical to use something that already exists and works extremely well rather than hope for technologies, price points, and devices that do not exist and are not proven to even be possible. Several companies are attempting to produce ODT's, but nobody seems to be attempting to create a business out of capture space rentals. That's too bad because the latter would be fantastic.

Even inhabitants of the US must admit that they havent got that much space left for everybody. ;)
But it would also depend on your usage. If you are really keen on VR on an active ODT for everyday then it would be the best solution.
Also, an active ODT does not have to be super large and super heavy, thus expensive.
We are in the first days of VR. All could happen. Dragon China is still growing and not satisfied yet.
Until now noone has ever realized a very good functioning Infinadeck-like ODT.
I really cannot understand all this pessimism in a pioneering time while everyone is to believe that VR is going to change the world.

I guess it all comes down to what an ODT is to you.

To me, it's not even supposed to be a holodeck or The Matrix. So I'm not disappointed that it's not.

It's just a way to perform locomotion input on an avatar without having to use my hands at all, and that sort of approximates a walking motion. Considering I've literally been waiting 20+ years to be able to control a game avatar with my hands and feet, and not have to use a freaking thumbstick, DPAD, WASD etc., it seems pretty freaking awesome to me.

I'm not sure why people think it's reasonable to expect literally first generation walking platforms to be equivalent to a holodeck. It's pretty much as ridiculous as you can get.

It's exactly the same as the people that complain that the Rift is "just a gimmick" because it's not literally and completely the same as jacking into the Matrix.

It's like, paging Captain Obvious, paging Captain Obvious - you're needed in aisle 5 for a consultation, to let people know that expecting the first consumer virtual reality devices, or peripherals therefor, to literally be The Matrix is totally freaking absurd.

The thing is the following.
We have no other better all-in-one alternative until the emergence of nanobots.
So, BELIEVE IN IT THAT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE CHEAP ACTIVE ODTS GODDAM!!!! :lol:

"cerebral" wrote:
The thing is the following.
We have no other better alternative until the emergence of nanobots.
So, BELIEVE IN IT THAT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE CHEAP ACTIVE ODTS GODDAM!!!! :lol:

Exactly! If the problem is so insurmountable that we'll "never" have something people here would consider to be better than a thumbstick/WASD (i.e., 100% perfect holodeck/Matrix locomotion) the current type of ODTs are what we'll have for a good long time.

So you can either stick your head in the mud and say "They aren't a holodeck so I'd rather use WASD for locomotion!" or you can just accept that they have some limitations, but on the whole are pretty damn good at freeing up your hands for controlling locomotion of an avatar.

The whole "NOT PERFECT SO I'D RATHER USE WASD" mentality is basically equivalent to saying "DK1 isn't a near-eye light field display with 8K resolution per eye and 270 degree FOV, so I'd rather use a 640x480 resolution monitor."

Cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Interesting discussion!

I agree that people can learn a wide variety of motion skills. It's something we excel at as a species.

Less inertia isn't a problem with passive ODTs though in my experience, beyond taking a few minutes to get used to. If anything it's a positive! It's natural in fact for levels of inertia experienced on Earth to differ from person to person, and during an individual's lifetime.

That experience is affected by a number of variables - a person's height, weight, age, and fitness.

The heavier and less fit a body, the more strain they will experience when accelerating or running uphill due to the effect of gravity and friction. For an athlete with powerful lower limbs, who carries little excess weight (like Roger Federer for instance), acceleration and climbs will not feel much different to walking or jogging along a level plane. This is because their lower limbs have more than sufficient power and as you explained, moving is so natural to us we do it on an unconscious level. We don't have to think about our legs unless there's a problem!

A user in poorer physical condition may notice the reduced inertia more, especially when they run up a virtual hill. What might normally be an extremely difficult, tiring, and even painful experience for them will be substantially easier on an ODT like the Virtuix Omni.

For me, as someone who's built a lot of strength in his legs from playing a sport that involves repeated sprinting and stopping, I didn't notice the reduction in inertia. What I did notice was that I felt as though I were slightly lighter, and I wasn't getting tired as quickly as I expected to, and that my feet didn't feel under as much strain as I'm used to.

As for the vestibular system failing to register any acceleration, again this is not something I noticed. I suspect in normal conditions that sense is largely over-ridden by vision, which we primarily rely on for balance. We often don't consciously 'feel' our vestibular sense unless the movement is violent, for instance turning too rapidly, falling, or rapid acceleration in a vehicle such as a car or plane.

It's true that passive ODTs, in particular the Omni, will not cause users to feel their usual level of strain induced by inertia, but I think this is a good thing, especially when you consider we'll be running around for hours with additional weight from HMDs and peripherals. This also makes it a better fitness aid, being a more aerobic form of exercise.

"sutekiB" wrote:
Interesting discussion!

I agree that people can learn a wide variety of motion skills. It's something we excel at as a species.

Less inertia isn't a problem with passive ODTs though in my experience, beyond taking a few minutes to get used to. If anything it's a positive! It's natural in fact for levels of inertia experienced on Earth to differ from person to person, and during an individual's lifetime.

That experience is affected by a number of variables - a person's height, weight, age, and fitness.

The heavier and less fit a body, the more strain they will experience when accelerating or running uphill due to the effect of gravity and friction. For an athlete with powerful lower limbs, who carries little excess weight (like Roger Federer for instance), acceleration and climbs will not feel much different to walking or jogging along a level plane. This is because their lower limbs have more than sufficient power and as you explained, moving is so natural to us we do it on an unconscious level. We don't have to think about our legs unless there's a problem!

A user in poorer physical condition may notice the reduced inertia more, especially when they run up a virtual hill. What might normally be an extremely difficult, tiring, and even painful experience for them will be substantially easier on an ODT like the Virtuix Omni.

For me, as someone who's built a lot of strength in his legs from playing a sport that involves repeated sprinting and stopping, I didn't notice the reduction in inertia. What I did notice was that I felt as though I were slightly lighter, and I wasn't getting tired as quickly as I expected to, and that my feet didn't feel under as much strain as I'm used to.

As for the vestibular system failing to register any acceleration, again this is not something I noticed. I suspect in normal conditions that sense is largely over-ridden by vision, which we primarily rely on for balance. We often don't consciously 'feel' our vestibular sense unless the movement is violent, for instance turning too rapidly, falling, or rapid acceleration in a vehicle such as a car or plane.

It's true that passive ODTs, in particular the Omni, will not cause users to feel their usual level of strain induced by inertia, but I think this is a good thing, especially when you consider we'll be running around for hours with additional weight from HMDs and peripherals. This also makes it a better fitness aid, being a more aerobic form of exercise.

Nice in depth post - good to hear some first hand report instead of just speculation.

I have to say I think that sounds like a good thing as well - if I want to walk around Skyrim for 2 hours, I don't really want it to be as strenuous as actually doing it.

"brantlew" wrote:
Redirected walking
- Find empty space approx (100' x 100')
- Build tracking solution (IMU suit, optical camera array, etc.)

The problem with redirected walking is the user’s free will.

Redirected walking works great if the scenario designer can predetermine the user’s path to fit it into the physical space available.

But consider this case: The user walks in a straight path in the virtual world for a good distance. The path redirection software subtly adjusts the user’s physical path into gently curving circle that fits in the available physical space. Then all of a sudden the user decides to turn 90 degrees (outward from the physical circle) and run at full speed. Thus more space needs to be allocated then required to redirect moving along a straight path. And this could happen again, but you need to make sure the user never runs full force into a wall.

If the physical space is limited, the software control system may need to warn the user and make a more abrupt (clearly discernable) change in his path. This is likely to disrupt what the user happens to be doing at the time and may also disorient him.

All of the studies of redirected walking that I’ve seen limit users to move along predefined paths.

-JimT

The problem with an ODT of any generation, that does not have a harness/tether, is that you cannot come to a full stop - in a natural manner - after moving at a fast pace or quickly change your direction of motion. It’s not a limitation of the device or its control system. You motor control reflexes are conditioned to take your body’s inertia into account, when its momentum is nullified because your body is not actually in motion your reflexes are ‘misapplied’. – Running off the end of a linear treadmill is no fun at all.

You’d need an omnidirectional active tether to allow you to brake and redirect your momentum naturally. A passive harness may be good enough to let you keep your footing. If the ODT is large enough you can mix in some actual translation and that will help mitigate the problem, somewhat.

Have you ever tried using a first class stepping-in-place control with a HMD & a turning harness, one that moves your body in proportion to you leg motion and in the direction in which you swing your legs? Such systems readily support stopping quickly & redirecting your motion. Other alternatives exist & should also be considered.

A device in which you are in a ring or turning harness and slide your feet on the floor is not really a treadmill (there is no tread or mill), although it is sometimes referred to as an ODT. That is not what I am talking about to with regard to inertia.

-JimT

"JimT" wrote:
All of the studies of redirected walking that I’ve seen limit users to move along predefined paths.

Well, I'm not going to argue with that. It's true that random paths will always lead you to an edge. And when you encounter an edge you have to resort to some interruptive event to keep the player in bounds. During my free-range travels I've had scenarios where I've bounced along an edge hitting it frequently but I've also gone as long as 25 minutes without hitting an edge - (though about 8-10 times per hour was average). But here's the thing - the periods between boundaries are simply amazing. I've tried my fair share of VR equipment and prototype headsets, ODTs, tracked spaces, been in the Valve room many times. I can't say that I've ever achieved "presence" or whatever, but without a doubt the most "transportive" experiences I have had were during free-ranging sessions. Unencumbered movement is a powerfully immersive thing but also fragile. Stationary locomotion systems certainly have logistical appeal but all of them continuously tug away at your immersion. Whether it be harnesses, awkward motion, balance, inertia - you are constantly reminded of artificiality and inconsistency.

Let me draw an analogy. The Rift is pretty cool and under the right circumstances can provide a consistently good experience. But I don't think your eyes are ever fooled into seeing it as reality. Even at its best the world still looks like computer graphics. And I think that's the best we can hope for in an ODT - a compelling but consistently artificial feeling (and I don't think we are even at that point yet). Now imagine if I told you that there existed a hypothetical HMD that produced photo-realistic images at retinal resolutions, supported eye accommodation, and a 210 degree wrap around FOV for a 95% perfect visual experience - BUT that every 6 or 7 minutes it would glitch, stutter, and pixelate for two or three seconds. That would still be much better than the Rift right? Well that's what redirected walking is like for your body. A near perfect simulation. There's just no comparison to an ODT.

And that's why I get so excited about this stuff. Because I'm not talking about some hypothetical future machine. This is something that you can actually create right now!

"JimT" wrote:
A device in which you are in a ring or turning harness and slide your feet on the floor is not really a treadmill (there is no tread or mill), although it is sometimes referred to as an ODT.

Yeah, I'm not too fond of that acronym either. Why not Stationary Locomotion Systems (SLS) which would include treadmills, foot sliders, and walking-in-place trackers? :D