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RuneSR2
Honored Contributor
July 28, 2018
Question

The destructive force of GREAT VR games getting mediocre or no reviews

When telling my friends and colleagues that VR is mankind's most impressive invention since the wheel, I keep hearing that many will consider buying a VR headset when great games arrive. I can then tell them about the many awesome VR games, but the problem arises when I have to show some reviews of such great VR games. Often there're no reviews or the authors of VR game reviews seem keen to do their very best bashing most VR games for not being good enough - quite contrary to my experiences.

I know Oculus took great pride getting a top-ranked VR game on Metacritic, and they succeeded with Lone Echo last year. But where do we stand this summer? - Here's today's list of the best PC games, including VR games, from Metacritic (and my friends read such lists):



According to that list there are no games you can't play without a VR headset. The only game on the list you can play in VR is The Forest, but it works in 2D too. If the list is expanded to show all current games, Gunheart also receives 83 points like The Forest, and again you don't need a VR headset to play Gunheart. My friends easily conclude that since there're no VR-only high-ranking games on the Metacritic list, it's because current VR games are of poor quality and VR is something no one truly needs. 

I can't blame them for drawing such conclusions, and even showing 2D trailers don't help much, because you can't communicate the greatness of VR games using a 2D video.

I think it's a great problem that new and awesome VR games don't get good reviews or do not get reviewed at all. Let's take Moss - it's a VR-only game arriving a few months ago:

Moss Metacritic Score for PC: No score due to insufficient number of reviews.
Moss User Score in the Oculus Store: About 96% average. 

There're just 3 Moss reviews for PC VR on Metacritic, scoring the game at 79, 80 or 90 % - which in no way reflects user experiences. And often I see a similar trend. 

The reason behind the few Moss PC reviews are probably that many reviewers reviewed the PS4 version and then didn't want to do another review for PC VR. Thus compared to the 3 reviews for the Rift/Vive version, there're 62 reviews of the PS4 version! Interestingly many reviewers have no problem reviewing different game versions for PS4, XBox One and PC - like Battlefield 1, Fifa 18 and Rise of the Tomb Rader just to name a few titles. Why didn't Moss PC VR get a similar treatment?

This is a great problem - Moss for the Rift and Vive is not the same as the PS4 version; PS4 has no controllers matching the Rift or Vive, and the PS4 has much lower resolution (also when using high levels of super-sampling on the Rift and Vive). But the greatness of Moss PC VR was never communicated to the masses, because there're almost no published reviews of one of the greatest VR games so far - and certainly the best one thus far in 2018!

Another problem of mixing VR and 2D games on Metacritic is to compare apples and oranges, or probably more to compare grapes and watermelons 😉

To illustrate: Is Subnautica 2D the same as Subnautica VR? Is Elite Dangerous 2D the same as Elite Dangerous VR? I'd personally consider Subnautica VR about 10 times better than Subnautica 2D, even if the VR version does have some problems. So should we rate Subnautica 2D at 10 % and the VR version at 100 % ? Of course this would not be fair, but I'd have no problem rating Subnautica 2D at 65 % and the VR version at 95 %, if we really want to compare apples and oranges - and want to rate both on the same scale. 
I believe that many reviewers rate VR games just as if the games were in 2D. Comparing 2D and VR games, I'd have a hard time rating a 2D game more than 70 % - and that would be for the very best AAA 2D games, while I'd have a hard time rating any high-quality VR game below 90 %. This is due to the fact that VR games are so incredibly more visually impressive and immersive than any 2D game can be - and Touch controllers add a lot to provide a truly unique VR experience. For example I'd have no problem rating a 2D version of Marvel Powers United at maybe 60 %, and to rate the VR version at 90 %, because the immersion - the feeling of being present in the game world - is so much better in VR. 

If reviewers fail to clearly communicate how much better VR games are compared to 2D games, how are persons - who know very little about VR - going to know how much better VR games are compared to 2D games? The current bashing of Marvel Powers United is a great example of this - and it's a great destructive force limiting VR adoption when VR game reviewers constantly criticize gameplay as if a VR game wasn't different from a 2D game. A new VR game which is the best within it's genre - compared to other VR games in the same genre - is per definition the new reference and should carry a rating reflecting that position. - And such a VR game should not carry a rating that reflects a reviewers preference for 2D games in the genre. 

I think it would be great if Oculus representatives could ask Metacritic not to mix 2D and VR games; there are plenty of VR games to support having their own category.
We need to stop comparing apples and oranges. 

Finally we could take a look on the current top three PC games on Metacritic, namely these:

Into the Breach - rated 89 %


Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire - rated 88 %


Final Fantasy XV - Windows - rated at 85 %


I do think that some of these games look impressive, but are these games way better than the latest and greatest Rift games? Personally I'd consider the following games so much better; compared to 2D games I'd happily rate Moss at 97 %, Seeking Dawn at 93 % and Marvel Powers United VR at 90 %



    132 replies

    Up and Coming
    August 4, 2018

    Zenbane said:


    nrosko said:
    This is the game you didn't play yet?




    I avoid awful things when possible. And how many VR games have you built? You are the person who said that making VR games is fairly simple right?
    :D



    nrosko said:

    Wiggling wrists  in melee combat is a problem in many vr games



    That is an inaccurate assessment. Wiggling wrists is a problem in "VR Ports" sure. But Native VR games? Have you tried any of the Boxing Sims? You can't wiggle wrist your way to victory in a VR Game that was made for VR professionally.



    nrosko said:
    Lets not pretend it is especially hard to make a game in VR in comparison to normal



    You said it was "fairly simple." So how many VR games have you made? If you haven't made any, what evidence do you have that making a VR game is more simple than making a 2D game?


    Yes i have tried boxing sims, wiggle to win is really specific to weapons though for example if you have a sword, wiggling your wrist turns it into blender that kills the enemy in an instant.
    There are many made for vr games that you can wiggle to win, Karnage, Primordian, Sairento, CyubeVR, Killing Floor Incursions & Titan Slayer. I only came across Gorn that really did a good job at preventing wiggle to win by using weapons that bend, but that introduces other issues.  
    The Forrest is a wip & i think they even improved the tree chopping since i last checked.  

    I didn't say it was more simple I said it is fairly simple to make a vr game & you are deliberately missing the original point. I have a full time job & no time to be making games, but i have a friend who made a simple vr version of pong in a few days with Unreal 4. I guess that game gets a 90% simply for being in vr? It is much harder to make a good game in 2d or vr than it is to make any old vr game. 


    Zenbane
    Honored Contributor
    August 4, 2018

    nrosko said:
    Yes i have tried boxing sims, wiggle to win is really specific to weapons though




    Yet what you said is that wiggling wrists is a problem in "many vr games." Now you want to change the premise to games with weapons? Okay, is it a problem in Shooters like Onward? Archangel? Echo Combat? RoboRecall? How about flight games that have weapons? Eve Valkyrie? Elite Dangerous?

    Can you wiggle your wrist to win in those games that have weapons?



    nrosko said:
    I didn't say it was more simple I said it is fairly simple to make a vr game



    If it is not "more simple" than making a 2D game, then which of these are you saying:
    • Making a VR Game is "less simple" than making a 2D game. This would mean it is harder to make a VR game than a 2D game.
    • Making a VR Game is "just as simple" as making a 2D game. This would nullify the idea of it being "simple."

    I've made a full game, it can be downloaded at played (link in my sig). Making games isn't simple. Making VR games adds a new layer of "thinking" that is not required when making a 2D game. I won't bother expanding upon that because you seem determined to simply make the claim that it is "fairly simple" without actually backing it up.



    nrosko said:
     i have a friend who made a simple vr version of pong in a few days with Unreal 4.


    Your friend did not invent Pong. The first video game version was invented in 1958:
    https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200810/physicshistory.cfm

    I can build a Pong game that plays in your browser in about 20 minutes, the source code is here:

    So your one example about how "fairly simple" it is to make a VR game... is because you have a friend who used a 3rd party engine to rebuild a one-screen application that existed in 1958 and is open sourced today? Compelling.
    RuneSR2
    RuneSR2Author
    Honored Contributor
    August 4, 2018

    nrosko said:


     I have a full time job & no time to be making games, but i have a friend who made a simple vr version of pong in a few days with Unreal 4. I guess that game gets a 90% simply for being in vr? It is much harder to make a good game in 2d or vr than it is to make any old vr game. 




    I'm quite sure you already know the answers to the questions you're asking ;) Just like great 2D games aren't made in a few days, it'll take time to make awesome VR experiences. And of course not all VR apps and games are gold. 3 great users reviews won't impress anyone. But if you make a VR game (or an app) that takes users - and moves users - beyond their best 2D game experiences, then I think the VR experience needs special credit for that. So far I've experienced many VR games that impressed me far more than any 2D game ever did. 

    One of my best friends tried Lone Echo some months ago. Back in 1993-1994, when we had just started at the university, I showed him Doom on my back then high-end 486DX2 66MHz (using Creative Labs AWE32 sound card, Doom had great sound too). Both of us had never seen anything like it - we were completely blown away. Doom was hands down to greatest quantum leap in 2D gaming we've ever experienced, even to this day. After he tried Lone Echo he told me that this experience was way more impressive than the first time we saw Doom. And I couldn't agree more. Now I wonder - Doom happend about 24 years before I experienced Lone Echo - will I witness another gaming quantum leap in my lifetime? We'll see :)
    Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"
    Zenbane
    Honored Contributor
    August 4, 2018
    Also, regarding this comment:

    "I have a full time job & no time to be making games"

    If someone has full time job but can make time to Play games, then they can make time to Make games.

    Up and Coming
    August 4, 2018

    Zenbane said:

    Also, regarding this comment:

    "I have a full time job & no time to be making games"

    If someone has full time job but can make time to Play games, then they can make time to Make games.



    tbh it something i wouldn't mind learning just for the hell of it, I downloaded Unreal & got a free copy of Notch but realistically it's not going to happen,  i have more than games going on in my life. Modding is also something else i wanted to get into but it would be to sacrifice other things that i enjoy doing. 
    Up and Coming
    August 4, 2018

    RuneSR2 said:


    nrosko said:


     I have a full time job & no time to be making games, but i have a friend who made a simple vr version of pong in a few days with Unreal 4. I guess that game gets a 90% simply for being in vr? It is much harder to make a good game in 2d or vr than it is to make any old vr game. 




    I'm quite sure you already know the answers to the questions you're asking ;) Just like great 2D games aren't made in a few days, it'll take time to make awesome VR experiences. And of course not all VR apps and games are gold. 3 great users reviews won't impress anyone. But if you make a VR game (or an app) that takes users - and moves users - beyond their best 2D game experiences, then I think the VR experience needs special credit for that. So far I've experienced many VR games that impressed me far more than any 2D game ever did. 

    One of my best friends tried Lone Echo some months ago. Back in 1993-1994, when we had just started at the university, I showed him Doom on my back then high-end 486DX2 66MHz (using Creative Labs AWE32 sound card, Doom had great sound too). Both of us had never seen anything like it - we were completely blown away. Doom was hands down to greatest quantum leap in 2D gaming we've ever experienced, even to this day. After he tried Lone Echo he told me that this experience was way more impressive than the first time we saw Doom. And I couldn't agree more. Now I wonder - Doom happend about 24 years before I experienced Lone Echo - will I witness another gaming quantum leap in my lifetime? We'll see :)


    When reviewers look at games they are breaking it down into sections, how do the graphics stack up, how well implemented is the story, how much content is there, how good are the missions, what is the value for money, etc etc.
    I think when you stack these things up against the 2d counterparts pretty much all made for vr games are sub standard apart from maybe eye candy. VR in itself is amazing but for me that shouldn't be how games are judged.   
    Zenbane
    Honored Contributor
    August 4, 2018

    nrosko said:

    tbh it something i wouldn't mind learning just for the hell of it, I downloaded Unreal & got a free copy of Notch but realistically it's not going to happen,  i have more than games going on in my life. Modding is also something else i wanted to get into but it would be to sacrifice other things that i enjoy doing. 



    The reason I started becoming a software developer some 20+ years is ago is because I 'thought' I wanted to become a game developer. I took a Java class and started making Applets. From Card Games running in the browser to Space Combat. But I never quite grew a passion for it, plus the fact is that I sucked at software development at the time. I was downright atrocious.

    Fast forward 20 years and I ended up mastering development in ways I had never dreamed. That's when I decided to return to the original catalyst for my career, game development. It took me 1-year to use the Grimrock Engine to recreate the entire world of Myst in an RPG setting. I also added multiple levels and boss battles of my own creation and design (my Mod is 80% Myst, 20% Zenbane).

    During that year I had zero time to play any other games. It was just my Mod and Myst as a point of reference. When I was finished, I realize that after 20 years of mastering software development, and being able to rewrite an entire game world from scratch using my own abilities... I still don't have a passion for Game Development. I love what I created, but I'll never do it again lol

    Or maybe I'll try it again in another 20 years.

    Point being... the hard work that real game developers put in to real products isn't something anyone should dismiss. And the new way of "thinking" about development that the VR Platform requires certainly doesn't make anything easier.
    RuneSR2
    RuneSR2Author
    Honored Contributor
    August 4, 2018

    nrosko said:


    When reviewers look at games they are breaking it down into sections, how do the graphics stack up, how well implemented is the story, how much content is there, how good are the missions, what is the value for money, etc etc.I think when you stack these things up against the 2d counterparts pretty much all made for vr games are sub standard apart from maybe eye candy.    


    Reviewers thinking like that, and thereby possibly removing the VR immersion from the analysis, could be a destructive force causing great VR games to receive mediocre or even bad reviews - maybe I should start a thread about that problem...  ;)
    Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"
    Zenbane
    Honored Contributor
    August 4, 2018

    RuneSR2 said:
    maybe I should make a thread about that problem... 




    Up and Coming
    August 4, 2018

    RuneSR2 said:

    When telling my friends and colleagues that VR is mankind's most impressive invention since the wheel, I keep hearing that many will consider buying a VR headset when great games arrive. I can then tell them about the many awesome VR games, but the problem arises when I have to show some reviews of such great VR games. Often there're no reviews or the authors of VR game reviews seem keen to do their very best bashing most VR games for not being good enough - quite contrary to my experiences.

    I know Oculus took great pride getting a top-ranked VR game on Metacritic, and they succeeded with Lone Echo last year. But where do we stand this summer? - Here's today's list of the best PC games, including VR games, from Metacritic (and my friends read such lists):



    According to that list there are no games you can't play without a VR headset. The only game on the list you can play in VR is The Forest, but it works in 2D too. If the list is expanded to show all current games, Gunheart also receives 83 points like The Forest, and again you don't need a VR headset to play Gunheart. My friends easily conclude that since there're no VR-only high-ranking games on the Metacritic list, it's because current VR games are of poor quality and VR is something no one truly needs. 

    I can't blame them for drawing such conclusions, and even showing 2D trailers don't help much, because you can't communicate the greatness of VR games using a 2D video.

    I think it's a great problem that new and awesome VR games don't get good reviews or do not get reviewed at all. Let's take Moss - it's a VR-only game arriving a few months ago:

    Moss Metacritic Score for PC: No score due to insufficient number of reviews.
    Moss User Score in the Oculus Store: About 96% average. 

    There're just 3 Moss reviews for PC VR on Metacritic, scoring the game at 79, 80 or 90 % - which in no way reflects user experiences. And often I see a similar trend. 

    The reason behind the few Moss PC reviews are probably that many reviewers reviewed the PS4 version and then didn't want to do another review for PC VR. Thus compared to the 3 reviews for the Rift/Vive version, there're 62 reviews of the PS4 version! Interestingly many reviewers have no problem reviewing different game versions for PS4, XBox One and PC - like Battlefield 1, Fifa 18 and Rise of the Tomb Rader just to name a few titles. Why didn't Moss PC VR get a similar treatment?

    This is a great problem - Moss for the Rift and Vive is not the same as the PS4 version; PS4 has no controllers matching the Rift or Vive, and the PS4 has much lower resolution (also when using high levels of super-sampling on the Rift and Vive). But the greatness of Moss PC VR was never communicated to the masses, because there're almost no published reviews of one of the greatest VR games so far - and certainly the best one thus far in 2018!

    Another problem of mixing VR and 2D games on Metacritic is to compare apples and oranges, or probably more to compare grapes and watermelons ;-)

    To illustrate: Is Subnautica 2D the same as Subnautica VR? Is Elite Dangerous 2D the same as Elite Dangerous VR? I'd personally consider Subnautica VR about 10 times better than Subnautica 2D, even if the VR version does have some problems. So should we rate Subnautica 2D at 10 % and the VR version at 100 % ? Of course this would not be fair, but I'd have no problem rating Subnautica 2D at 65 % and the VR version at 95 %, if we really want to compare apples and oranges - and want to rate both on the same scale. 
    I believe that many reviewers rate VR games just as if the games were in 2D. Comparing 2D and VR games, I'd have a hard time rating a 2D game more than 70 % - and that would be for the very best AAA 2D games, while I'd have a hard time rating any high-quality VR game below 90 %. This is due to the fact that VR games are so incredibly more visually impressive and immersive than any 2D game can be - and Touch controllers add a lot to provide a truly unique VR experience. For example I'd have no problem rating a 2D version of Marvel Powers United at maybe 60 %, and to rate the VR version at 90 %, because the immersion - the feeling of being present in the game world - is so much better in VR. 

    If reviewers fail to clearly communicate how much better VR games are compared to 2D games, how are persons - who know very little about VR - going to know how much better VR games are compared to 2D games? The current bashing of Marvel Powers United is a great example of this - and it's a great destructive force limiting VR adoption when VR game reviewers constantly criticize gameplay as if a VR game wasn't different from a 2D game. A new VR game which is the best within it's genre - compared to other VR games in the same genre - is per definition the new reference and should carry a rating reflecting that position. - And such a VR game should not carry a rating that reflects a reviewers preference for 2D games in the genre. 

    I think it would be great if Oculus representatives could ask Metacritic not to mix 2D and VR games; there are plenty of VR games to support having their own category.
    We need to stop comparing apples and oranges. 

    Finally we could take a look on the current top three PC games on Metacritic, namely these:

    Into the Breach - rated 89 %
     https://youtu.be/oaiFvuWsfy8

    Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire - rated 88 %
    https://youtu.be/lsZARCYYxME

    Final Fantasy XV - Windows - rated at 85 %
    https://youtu.be/O9QuuL78R8w

    I do think that some of these games look impressive, but are these games way better than the latest and greatest Rift games? Personally I'd consider the following games so much better; compared to 2D games I'd happily rate Moss at 97 %, Seeking Dawn at 93 % and Marvel Powers United VR at 90 %

    https://youtu.be/dHgIHdKYy1o

    https://youtu.be/tb650-FbLoU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JylFxdVmvAk


    I agree 100% with everything you typed ! Now get a YT channel and start reviewing VR games as it seems your passionate and well spoken !
     will sub to you and spread the word to help get VR's reach further !
    I had no idea HellBlade had a VR version ! How many other games am i missing out on because the word isn't getting shouted loudly enough !