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The Index thread (please keep to subject)

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As per the title, please respect the users who post here and keep it on topic, any nonsense and......grrr

Participant

How long before we hear about news on another of Valves mystical games? Days, weeks, months?

He’s hit a brick wall and his credibility for credible sources has been shot to pieces. The way he was laughing in his last video was embarrassing. He stated several times L4D VR was a thing. He knows people are laughing at him and he's trying to out laugh them for believing L4D VR was real, it’s so twisted.

To force Valve into making a statement goes to show how deep his misinformation has penetrated the VR community. Valve outed him in spectacular fashion.

He should now close his site down and get a proper job. He’s invested so much of his life making himself believe he’s a Valve insider when he’s really closer to the general public knowing nothing at all.

kevinw729

Inspiring

PluckeyOne said:

....
He’s hit a brick wall and his credibility for credible sources has been shot to pieces. The way he was laughing in his last video was embarrassing. He stated several times L4D VR was a thing. He knows people are laughing at him and he's trying to out laugh them for believing L4D VR was real, it’s so twisted.

To force Valve into making a statement goes to show how deep his misinformation has penetrated the VR community. Valve outed him in spectacular fashion.

He should now close his site down and get a proper job. He’s invested so much of his life making himself believe he’s a Valve insider when he’s really closer to the general public knowing nothing at all.

Sadly it looks like the new sources he though he had attracted were in fact the means in which Valve could play him (Gabe never forgets!)

I feel sorry that he has been placed in this position - especially as he is so passionate about a operation who really do not repay the affection.

As Valve are cultivating their on new source of new interchange through the new SteamVR portal, I think he may find that he has been played to make way for a different means of communication - shame.

https://vrawards.aixr.org/ "The Out-of-Home Immersive Entertainment Frontier: Expanding Interactive Boundaries in Leisure Facilities" https://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Home-Immersive-Entertainment-Frontier/dp/1472426959

Zenbane

Honored Contributor

A new article published today about the Valve Index's reliability issues:

all roses have thorns, and it seems that the Index may have some problems with its manufacturing. According to some rumors, the production initially started in the US, but when the demand got too big, Valve started manufacturing the headsets and controllers via third parties in China. This has been good to ramp up the production, but it seems having been a bad move from a reliability side.

Thanks to my friend (and VR ergonomics expert) Rob Cole, I discovered that on Reddit there are tons of complaints about the Valve Index, with many people having had to return the controllers, the headsets and the base stations. We have to praise the fact that usually Valve customer service is doing a great job in answering all the requests, but the RMA (Return Merchandise Authorization) procedure is not always pleasant for the users.

https://skarredghost.com/2020/01/18/valve-index-reliability-issues-rma/

The Knuckles have issues beyond mere Clickgate all these months later, adding drifting and haptics to the list.

Some rather revealing user comments on the article depicting the growing frustration.

“Yep, I got the exact same problem, if I move my left joystick left or right it keeps moving the character even after I take my finger off the stick. It happens with every game and it’s a clear design flaw.

Add to that the non-clicking and loose cover for the right controller, of course.

There’s no defending Valve here, it’s a design defect that I can’t believe went into the final design after so many years of testing.”

“Got the index in August and I’ve been having some minor issues with no real consequences, until last week I got pretty serious controller drift every time I flick the right controller down at all. Deadzone changes don’t change anything and even if they did it wouldn’t be acceptable. “

“It really isn’t acceptable and I want to make sure I have them fixes/new ones when Alyx releases. If I RMA them the week after new years, when do you think I’ll send them in, and when will I get controllers back?”

“Same exact scenario. Second set lasted maybe 10 days. Amazing they are still pushing out this garbage.”

“One of the replacements I received has tracking glitches when any moderately intense haptics kick in. Has anyone else experienced this? For example, when firing a weapon in Space Pirate Trainer, the controller becomes floaty and will sometimes vanish momentarily. In the vrserver log, there are a number of “unlikely gravity”, “IMU misalignment” and “IMU related panic” entries that correspond to those events.

My other controller doesn’t have this problem but the haptics on that feel weaker, they’re also louder and have a different tone to them. Guess I need to get back in touch with support.”

“Well i’m glad you managed to get new slightly less broken £260 controllers. meanwhile i cant get so much as a reply from support and the second set they sent me where completely unusable just like the first.”

“First pair was wave 1 pre order. -Drifting after 1 month and had joystick clicking issue

2nd pair had a trackpad sensor issue after 2 weeks

Current pair (3rd) – 0 clicking issues but developed drifting after 2 months”

“What am I supposed to do?

My right index controller has been at the warehouse for 16 days now ands steam support has been ignoring me since the 30th November.

I have no idea if /when I’m getting a replacement controller.

I am receiving no response.”

I don't think that there is any surprise that the controller issue is getting worse; as there were clear indications that Valve was treating manufacturing of their hardware rather poorly. If we look back when Clickgate started, Valve gave everyone a clear image of how they treated the situation when they publicly said that it was "by design." Any time a company tries to convince you that the problem you are experiencing isn't really a problem, then you know that chances are extremely high you'll end up experiencing... more problems with their products.

Although to be fair to Valve, they aren't the only ones who may have taken too big a risk my moving their manufacturing to an outsourced company in China. *coughoculuscough*

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

RuneSR2 said:

I'll check later if the problems persist, if yes it's time for 441.87 B)

I did end up installing 441.87 - and quite amazingly that actually fixed all problems with SteamVR 1.9.16. Does make sense that 1.9.16 (+hotfix) may be highly adjusted to 441.87, because 441.87 contains VRSS support for 20 VR games and thus seems highly focused on VR. In short, 1.9.16 may break support for older drivers in some games - and there're several users having performance problems with 1.9.16 according to discussions on Steam.
Using 441.87 suddenly I got sound and music back in Aircar - and I got solid 90 fps in Boneworks res 200% again (with 2xMSAA and Shadows maxed).

That was awesome - I'm still waiting for the mid-level checkpoint save patch in Boneworks and hadn't played the game a lot for weeks. I had nearly forgotten how extremely detailed Boneworks can be when it comes to graphics, but also the incredible presence - it's the one game where Index feels like a quantum leap from CV1.

Also tried Garden by the Sea - which has changed to winter (you can reach out and catch snowflakes in your hand) - and I did not notice any vertical lcd columns.

I was thinking that today - this very evening - the Index reached a level which is really close to perfection. Image quality with automatic column correction is fantastic, my controllers work flawlessly including finger tracking (right controller has been working flawlessly since I got it in July) - and same goes for the base stations, the hmd and Revive.

Might be a great time to get the Index - although that might be very difficult due to the demand. The only thing I'd like to see more is being able to change refresh rate on the fly. Right now you still have to set refresh rates for all games - you cannot set Pistol Whip to 120 Hz and Boneworks to 90 Hz. And of course you still need CV1 for the very dark games - and for the very demanding games like Stormland and Asgard's Wrath, which profit from temporal antialiasing.

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

Borscht4eVR

Inspiring

I love my Index. I really do. I had it for about a month and a half now, and the Index accounts for roughly half of my hours spent in VR these days. The other half is split between Rift S and the Quest (mostly Quest - my Rift S is pretty much a display model now)

But I am still having a hard time recommending this headset. If anything, it's getting harder to do so, and it's for numerous reasons:

Controller issues: It's clear that Valve has issues with the controllers. I decided not to RMA my clickgatey controller for the time being - the waits are ridiculously lengthy due to low stock, and with so many reports of drift issue coming up on their RMA units, I'm kind of curious if I ought to wait a bit longer. In any case, now is not a good time to order one of these units.
Finger tracking is a hit-and-miss; I think everyone will agree with that statement. Kind of hard to justify the cost of the controllers alone for that feature alone to begin with, but when you add all the problems mentioned above, it's a no-starter.
Noisy base stations: in addition to unwieldy amount of cables that external base stations bring to table, they are anything but quiet (the stations, that is - my cables so far haven't made a peep =P). Here is a video I made to illustrate just how noisy mine get:
Glare: I'm a little baffled that Oculus pushed out a headset at third of the cost with optics that are vastly superior to that of Index
Price: I know it's been talked about to death, but I have a slightly different take on the cost here. Recently I decided to see just how close I could bring my Oculus Quest to Index in terms of overall experience, and at what price. So far I have spent an extra $224.57 on Quest mods which include:
- A plastic interface base that brings my eyes right up to the lenses for an additional 15 degrees of FOV (this has been the biggest eye-opener so far, which is why I'm mentioning it first)
- 2 comfortable leather interfaces that sit so much better than any other OEM interface on any other HMD.
- A counterweight halo strap that takes the front load off and distributes it to the back for a nicely balanced feel
- A pair of headphones that permanently mount to said strap with identical experience and sound quality to CV1
- A 5 m cable to tether the headset to a PC

If you count the cost of the headset, I got a super-comfortable $625 kit that I can take anywhere, and it blows Index out of the water in all aspects except for resolution. Clearly this mod is not an option for anyone but a hard-core enthusiast. But then again, Index caters to the same audience, with the added price tag of $375. But it can't play Oculus' games natively, the colors aren't as vibrant, and the support might try to sell you a flaw as a feature.

So yeah - I love my Index, and so as long as I don't develop any of the issues others are reporting, I'll be happy I have one.

But I'd never, ever recommend anyone to get one. It's just simply not worth a grand, and that's not even counting all of the issues that plague it.

EDIT: 3 months after posting this, I've turned 180 degrees on the above statements. See the post here for details: https://forums.oculusvr.com/community/discussion/comment/738936/#Comment_738936

Zenbane

Honored Contributor

Comrade_Ivan said:

I love my Index. I really do. I had it for about a month and a half now, and the Index accounts for roughly half of my hours spent in VR these days. The other half is split between Rift S and the Quest (mostly Quest - my Rift S is pretty much a display model now)

Sounds like you have a fantastic variety! There seems to be more and more VR enthusiasts with multiple leading headsets these days. Really great to see!

So yeah - I love my Index, and so as long as I don't develop any of the issues others are reporting, I'll be happy I have one.
But
I'd never, ever recommend anyone to get one. It's just simply not worth
a grand, and that's not even counting all of the issues that plague it.

It is a rare for someone to spend so much on a product yet be so direct/blunt in letting others know that they should probably avoid it. I'm still on my Rift CV1 (since 2016), and every so often I get tempted to "give in" and upgrade to one of the new HMD's (Index, Rift-S, HP Reverb). But with all the sacrifices one must make with these new HMD's, especially when coupled with the high prices, I just can't bring myself to hand over my credit card.

I'm really hoping to see either an upgraded Quest or Rift-S announced by the end of this year. I need to upgrade soon! But I don't want to deal with unnecessary product defect issues, or sub-par incremental enhancements, considering how great the Rift CV1 has been since launch. I'm craving a true 2nd Gen VR HMD.

TomCgcmfc

Honored Contributor

After playing with a number of new VR headsets over the past 10-11 months ( Rift S, Cosmos, and Vive Pro) I have come to the conclusion that the best VR thing anyone with a cv1 can do is to upgrade their gaming PC.

Not only will your cv1 perform much better (like 2.0 SS on almost everything), you will be in a good position to enjoy Gen2 headsets when they actually come out (2021-2022?).

While I have enjoyed trying new VR headsets ( well maybe not the Cosmos so much, lol!), the best thing I’ve was to upgrade my AW 17r4 gaming laptop to a proper gaming desktop (i9 9000k water cooled, gtx1080ti, 32Gb 3000 ram, 1Tb ssd, 4Tb hdd).

Anyway, just my $0.02 worth.

9800x3d, rtx5090, X870E MB w/wifi7, 64Gb 6000 ram, 2x2TB SSD, 1000W PSU, Win 11pro, QPro, Q3, w/Link and Air Link, Vive Pro1 with 2x2.0 base stations, Etsy lens mod and Index Controllers

Borscht4eVR

Inspiring

Zenbane said:
It is a rare for someone to spend so much on a product yet be so direct/blunt in letting others know that they should probably avoid it.

Totally agree. I haven't come across anyone else that feels the same way about their headset either. Most people either love it or hate it.

But then I also quit driving cars and now only ride motorcycles.

Bear with me while I explain.

After a while, for some drivers, the focus shifts away from getting from A to B and to the experience of driving an ungodly beast whose sole purpose is to push the Earth beneath it with enough gusto to make Newton rewrite his laws of motion.

In fact, as an avid motorcycle rider, I'm aware that I can get a brand new beast of a bike, and, with a little tinkering, bring it to a Lamborghini level of performance for a fraction of the price.

As someone who owned a Daydream HMD, a Gear VR, CV1, Rift S, Quest, and now an Index, I can look at the landscape and see different headsets for what they are. They're ultimately just different types of vehicles.

I consider Index to be like a Lamborghini Countach - amazing piece of tech designed to convert gasoline into adventure... fraught with mind-boggling design flaws (there are many: https://youtu.be/WVp5a38WT_0 ).

Keeping in spirit of such analogy, Oculus Quest would be somewhat akin to a Suzuki Hayabusa - a simpler, cheaper 2-wheeled beast which, with some know-how, can serve to turn an enthusiast rider into a Tomahawk Cruise Missile with a speed-induced boner.

I love my Index as much as I imagine any Lamborghini owner loves their beast (until the window in said Lamborghini stops only halfway down and they go "wtf, I paid all that money for this???" - seriously, watch the video linked above)

But I doubt any Lamborghini owner would truly recommend a Countach to anyone who is simply looking for an amazing ride. At least not after riding a tricked-out Hyabusa.

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

Comrade_Ivan said:

Noisy base stations: in addition to unwieldy amount of cables that external base stations bring to table, they are anything but quiet (the stations, that is - my cables so far haven't made a peep =P). Here is a video I made to illustrate just how noisy mine get:

https://youtu.be/PI64hILz9Pc

Base stations are the loudest when being turned on - and the motor starts, then they should go down in speed and be quiet. Personally I love the sound of base stations turning on - sounds like you're starting the VR engine and getting ready to fly B)
Hard to say if yours are louder than normal, but after turning them on I really don't hear mine - but they are each about 1.5 meters away. Some have found that anti-vibration mounting is extremely important to minimize noise. This is how my base stations sound when standing very close to them - they aren't totally silent, but it in no way bothers me:

https://youtu.be/Gdue98d55j8

I have one placed on a table and the other one on top of a large mirror - just standing on the feet provided by Valve.

Funny that you don't mention the columns - which is the one thing annoying me the most - and the lack of bass compared to CV1 speakers. Glare is more intense, but I don't see it in games like Boneworks and Pistol Whip - but then again, I would not play dark and glare-prone games using the Index anyway - such games deserve an oled panel.

If 1k is a huge amount of money compared to a person's budget, I'd clearly recommend Rift-S too - or actually getting a used CV1 like Tom said, right now Index is awesome for bright games where you don't see any glare, SDE and the colors really pop - and the large fov - but CV1 will play all your games, not just the bright ones ;)
Index is a deluxe hmd - trying Boneworks in solid 90 fps res 200% should convince the most - but there's really just one game like Boneworks available, might be like that until Alyx arrives.

BTW, Valve just increased specs for Alyx - these are now the minimum requirements:

OS: Windows 10
Processor: Core i5-7500 / Ryzen 5 1600
Memory: 12 GB RAM
Graphics: GTX 1060 / RX 580 - 6GB VRAM

An important restriction, it requires a much faster rig to drive the Index than the CV1 (or Rift-S) due to higher res and no ASW 2.0. I would not be surprised if recommended specs for Alyx would be a 1080 for CV1, while Index might need 1080 Ti/2080 or better - we'll see. This would put Alyx in the same boat as Asgard's Wrath and Stormland, which also recommend 1080 for the Rifts. Also being Source engine, ASW 2.0 probably won't help any with an Oculus hmd this time - I doubt Valve will support native Oculus drivers...

I can highly recommend Lucky's Tale Index res 200% - and remember til dial-in the lenses - it's basically glare-free - I think it's the best platformer on the planet, but of course not everyone likes this genre... Have you tried Boneworks res 150-200%? First Contact Index res 200% in solid 90 fps also blew me away - like being there and seeing it for real for the very first time (large fov, no SDE, twice the CV1 res - and no glare due to being a bright app like Lucky's Tale).

I don't think there're any better non-Oculus hmd out there than Index when it comes to Reviving games - for those with many Oculus games, and now that Carmack says lcd is the future, to me Index is the CV2 (awesome tracking, nearly 100% higher res, large fov, 120-144 Hz, IPD slider, and although the bass is weaker than CV1 the Index sound still is amazing). If Oculus had made the Index and sold it for 1k, I don't think many would say "hey, that's not a proper CV2"...

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

Zenbane

Honored Contributor

Comrade_Ivan said:
I love my Index as much as I imagine any Lamborghini owner loves their beast (until the window in said Lamborghini stops only halfway down and they go "wtf, I paid all that money for this???" - seriously, watch the video linked above)

Fun analogy! Although considering all the issues with Index and its controllers:

Clickgate
Drifting
HMD Overheating
God Rays
Haptics

The analogy would entail more than just a Lamborghini's windows stopping halfway down. It would be more like... if the power steering stopped working at random intervals, the brakes went out spontaneously, the engine overheats while driving, and the vehicle randomly shakes even when on a smooth road.

I consider both the Rift-S and Valve Index to be "Gen 1.5" devices. Technically speaking, Index is a CV1 (the first Consumer Version of the Valve Index), and there is just too much confirmation by the global Index userbase across YouTube, Facebook, and Reddit that while a great product for enthusiasts with a large budget to spend on a hobby, VR itself is still waiting for its next true Gen 2 device.

For anyone experiencing the Index's overheating issues, here's a good article on how to help:
https://vrgear.com/news/how-to-stop-your-valve-index-from-overheating/

A Kickstarter fan mod hits its goal:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kyle-fredericks/chilldex

I started this project as a response to being fed-up with the amount of sweat building up in the headset, literally after a few songs of beatsaber, sweat would be beading up near my forehead and getting in my eyes. I was just overall unsatisfied with the level of heat in the headset. I drew the line when I was making the headset damp playing moss which is a sit-down game. With Halflife: Alyx around the corner, longer and longer play sessions are becoming the norm.

The dude was sweating during Moss!

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