The Index thread (please keep to subject)

Haven't played tennis for like ... 30 years? But now I just did with the Index in 120 fps - did forget to stretch before the exercise, now I probably can't even lift a teaspoon tomorrow 😮 

Can't even remember the rules, but I guess this isn't Einstein's theory of general relativity, and I guess I'm starting to remember most of the rules in tennis now. Even won my first match (on maybe the easiest difficulty 😊), I'm so proud. 

Got 120 fps in 120 Hz using res 250% - and Ultra settings - maybe I can go higher 🤔 If the bystanders didn't look so cartoon-ish this would have felt even more like the real thing:

First I was worried that this game would be optimal for taking down my ceiling lamp, but so far no problems - I just got to remember that the racket extends beyond the physical room, lol. 

Did smash the Knuckles together twice, but they survived - but do be very careful when serving!

Recommended specs are somewhat high - not sure why, at least I got solid 120 fps using res 250%, so 90 fps res 150% should be possible with much slower hardware...

RECOMMENDED:

• OS: Windows 10/8/7/Vista/XP
• Processor: 3.5 GHz Intel Core i7 3700, 4.0 GHz AMD FX-8350
• Memory: 8 GB RAM
• Graphics: NVIDIA GTX 1080 / RADEON RX VEGA 64
• DirectX: Version 9.0c
• Storage: 3 GB available space

The game is 20% off on Steam right now:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/454140/First_Person_Tennis__The_Real_Tennis_Simulator/

89% of 240 reviews are positive. 

The game isn't fully optimized for the Index, you do get Wands in the menus, but everything works perfectly - and Knuckles are made to work perfectly like Wands. Thus Knuckles emulate both Touch and Wands close to perfectly. Btw, check out the dynamic shadows in the game - this tennis simulator was made for PCVR. 

If someone wants to play a less aggressive kind of tennis, where you probably won't smash up your controllers, I can recommend some Eleven Table Tennis. Unfortunately the current PC version has been Questified, but here's how to get back the awesome high-poly realtime-lighting PCVR version (I think you need the Steam version to do that):

https://forums.oculusvr.com/t5/Games-and-Apps/How-to-get-back-the-awesome-full-PCVR-version-of-Eleven-Table/td-p/875468

Cough... nothing to see here. Some posts that didn't need to be here have been removed.

Please let's all try to stay on topic and friendly!

And for the record, I do have an Index. I've also got a Quest 2 🙂

I'm enjoying the summer - no work for the next 2 weeks, and had time to read this fresh and informative review of Index vs. G2:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/ol5vda/an_index_owners_review_of_the_reverb_g2/

Maybe not much new here, but drivers and settings develop and mature so fresh reviews might not always be same as reviews when G2 (or Index) launched. Does seem that the G2 tracking still is problematic, while there are pros and cons to each hmd. 

Btw, my new Index hmd (replacement) is working flawlessly, and it does have less pronounced vertical columns than my first hmd - but I did get my first Index hmd 2 years ago, July 2019, thus Valve may have had time to lessen the issue. Columns are still there if you look hard for them, but are now non-distracting.  

I have way too many VR games and apps, and I'm slowly working through them and optimizing image quality for the RTX 3090. So far I don't recall any game not working perfectly in at least 90 fps with res 200%. Whenever I can, I try to use res 250% or 300% for the extra clarity of distant objects. RTX 3090 really feels like a perfect match for the Index, and it does not feel like overkill - when I turn up res, in-game settings and start to increase Hz often I can get to the point where I start to see reprojections. Just like in the Legacy version of Eleven Table Tennis, where some locations in 144 Hz and res 200% did force me to lower MSAA8x to ... *cough!* ... MSAA4x (but I'll live, lol). 

I wonder if this news will have a VR / Index slant down the road?

Agreed Ryanality - some media are sating "Nintendo will be quaking at the news"! I don't see Nintendo ever getting worried. They are an exclusive house, and a very controlled ecosystem. This GabeBoy feels more like a second bite at the SteamPC concept, now as a handheld. Regarding the Index2 - that may use similar firmware and even rock the SteamOS chipset for the VR streaming capability, but I think that is about it.

After all those years, I think I finally got Robo Recall right 😊 🤓 (btw, after getting the new rig, my save games were gone - but I made a copy of my old user folder and found the save games in User/AppData/Local/RoboRecall.) 

Before I got the new rig, Robo Recall has been somewhat difficult for me with the Index and Revive - not that the game didn't work, but Revive seemed to take quite a large performance toll. Thus I ended up with my heavily oc'ed GTX 1080 (which scores like a RTX 2070 Super in OpenVR Benchmark) only being able to use Index res 100%. And Index res 100% doesn't look very good - then I'd greatly prefer CV1 ss 2.0 with some nice ASW 2.0. I ended up never playing Robo Recall with the Index. 

With the brute force of the RTX 3090 the world has changed. Yesterday I started the game for the first time - now using 120 Hz and res 200%. I maxed out all in-game settings including 4xMSAA. Note that Robo Recall, unlike for example Defector, Stormland and Asgard's Wrath, does not use temporal antialiasing (TAA) and therefore looks totally sharp using the Index. I did notice some drops below 120 fps in the game, and of course knowing I could only do res 100% with the GTX 1080, going to a massive res 200% and to 120 fps may be pressing my luck, lol. Robo Recall was designed for 90 fps, but it works flawlessly in 120 fps, didn't test 144 fps. I do prefer optimal image quality in this game, and lowering Hz to 90 I got solid 90 fps with res 200% and maxed out settings. Being a bright game, this game profits little from oled and looks great with lcd (didn't notice much difference coming directly from CV1 to Index, also for color saturation). 

Maybe a RTX 3080 can also achieve solid 90 fps with Ultra settings and Index res 200% - but my 3090 couldn't keep up 120 fps, indicating a need for very beefy gpus for this kind of performance and image quality. Thus this level of gaming requires about 30 teraflops of rendering capacity 😉 

That's simply the most impressive experience I've had in Robo Recall - did a long dance with Odin (a boss in the game), but got him in the end. Due to the summer my VR room in the basement has heated up, and that Odin fight did cause me to sweat for one of the first times in the Index hmd, lol. 

With res 200%, solid 90 fps, close to no SDE, big fov and perfect tracking, Robo Recall plays better using the Index than even CV1 ss 2.0 - but CV1 is still awesome, and now also works in perfect 90 fps due to the RTX 3090. 

As a thought experiment, try to image you've never seen this game before - and imagine you now watch the trailers for an upcoming PCVR game :

Having seen many VR games, to this day very few are better when it comes to graphics and content. Surely you'll be teleporting a lot, but this game needs it - you can't run and jump fast enough if smooth locomotion was provided, or devs would have to alter the gameplay a lot to fit smooth locomotion. Also games requiring teleportation are few these days and may even make Robo Recall appear more fresh and unique - for those never having tried the game before, lol 😉 

I'm still far from having completed Robo Recall, really glad I saved the game - feels like I can finally enjoy the game close to as good as possible (ok, I might repeat that when we get RTX 5090 and new 8k hmds with 200 degrees fov 🤔). 

Some screenshots showing PCVR in all its glory - or close 🙂

Poly levels are extremely high - and round objects look .. round! 🙂

Enemies and weapons have great design and high-res textures (ok, not 4k-ish like Alyx and Boneworks, but still very impressive) - and the physics when grabbing robots are impressive

You can use two guns simultaneously

Another example of environments

Check out the number of high-poly enemies - and they all got awesome dynamic shadows

The sound is great too - didn't think the bass was weak even coming from the CV1. And tracking was perfect. Coming from the CV1 my brain did need some re-training to learn to really grab the guns and not just push a button. The game is now a solid 9/10 to me. 

Check out the poly count, dynamic shadows and those textures - this is PCVR at its very finest! 😍

I just tested Furious Seas with the Index - also see this thread for more info and trailers about the game:

https://forums.oculusvr.com/t5/Games-and-Apps/The-Furious-Seas-are-waiting-out-of-Early-Access-today-and-30/td-p/877296

This review contains much technical info about settings, Hz and res which only is relevant for Index users, thus consider this more a tech guide for Index users to the game.

Right now I'm totally blown away, and slightly seasick, lol. Had the most awesome moment actually having to duck to avoid an enemy cannon ball hitting my head - while sailing the pirate ship.

I used Index res 200% - which is very demanding in this game, but looks fantastic. Also used highest in-game setting, and then 8xMSAA. That was slightly optimistic, lol - in 120 Hz I got reprojections - also in 90 Hz. But no reprojections lowering MSAA to 4x (8xMSAA seemed to work in solid 90 fps in-game, but maybe better just using 4xMSAA - keeping the res 200% is the most important).

The ropes and the sails make dynamic shadows on the ship, and same for npcs etc. - it looks awesome, but can't be seen in this image though due the night time

Thus my settings: 90 Hz, 4xMSAA, res 200%, Highest graphics setting.

Totally felt like sailing a small pirate ship - some dude wrote that this game has the best water in any VR game. Ok, maybe Subnautica is slightly better at the menu screen, but you get the idea. Totally AWESOME water.

Now to save performance (I guess), not all things run in 90 fps, but waving your hands you can easily tell if you got solid 90 fps or not. I would not recommend 120 Hz for this game - 90 Hz seems perfect, then there's more headroom for eye candy like more res or MSAA.

Even using res 200% you can see difference between 4xMSAA and 8xMSAA, but 4xMSAA is quite good. In the heat of battle you don't notice any difference, lol.

Thus system requirements aren't totally spot on saying you just need a GTX 1050 Ti for this game. A RTX 2080 as the minimum is probably more realistic. Also the new version takes up 17GB, not 8 like said on the Steam page. Download size is only 5.4GB though.

There's no such thing as too much gold 😉

I only tried singleplayer, and battles were great. Like Battlewake, this is more arcade oriented gaming than a sim, but I'm not much into cumbersome sims - here you have easy access to awesome entertainment. The vibes from Pirates of the Caribbean are all over this game. Also while Battlewake looks cartoonish - Furious Seas looks like the real thing (and that's why your need a beefy gpu).

You'll encounter quite big ships, but you start with smaller vessels. You can even shoot holes in the sails - I perforated some sails so much they looked like giant thin sheets of Swiss cheese in the baffling winds   

Need to play it more, but so far few VR games have impressed me more. Awesome dynamic shadows on everything, looks like cloth animations too (for physics) - high-res textures making surfaces look real (or close).Index controllers are shown as Wands, but everything worked perfectly. Didn't notice after a few seconds. Great force feedback when holdering the helm (helm = the pirate steering wheel on the boat).

Sound is great too - although the game lacks intro/menu music, but you get music etc. in-game.

This is the closest I've ever felt to being aboard and commanding a real pirate ships, my greatest thanks and applause for the devs! Can't wait to get back on the ship! (I think the kids need to sleep very early tonight, so I can get some more time for *cough!* myself)

The game has been in development for more than 3 years, and it shows - in a great way. My rating: an easy 9/10 for now. A must-have if you got the rig and the hmd 😉

I guess I stand corrected regarding Reviving Lone Echo using the Index. I did it for the first time today - fueled by the brute force of the RTX 3090. The RTX 3090 is a total game changer, but I never expected it to be this profound for Lone Echo. 

Earlier using GTX 1080 (8GB) I Revived Lone Echo, but TAA made the game super-blurry, and the performance impact of 4xMSAA was severe. Also 4xMSAA wasn't enough to remove jaggies with TAA deactivated. What to do? Increase the res of course! 😎 Unfortunately trying res 200% with 4xMSAA nearly sunk my GTX 1080, lol - I got from 22.5 - 30 fps with 90 Hz. I needed a 3 - 4 times faster gpu to get 90 fps. 

Seems the RTX 3090 is exactly what I needed.

Testing with the RTX 3090, first I maxed out all in-game settings - got smooth 90 fps in 90 Hz - but that was res 100 %. Then held my breath (more or less) and set the res to 200% - using 4xMSAA. And I still got solid 90 fps - what an awesome surprise! Now, outside the Kronos II Mining Station, where the game probably is the most demanding, I did find a few locations dipping to 45 fps. But starting a new game, seeing Olivia for the first time 😍 and playing for 30 minutes, not once did I go below 90 fps. I'll consider 45 fps a very rare occurrence.  

Feinschmeckers may insist that even res 200% and 4xMSAA aren't enough to remove all jaggies, and while that is true, in most locations the game looks stunning, maybe even sort of mind-blowingly gorgeous. I quickly habituated to a few jaggies here and there. Seeing Oliva close-up with 4xMSAA and res 200% was a great experience - she never looked better, and solid 90 fps also helped making her move life-like. It was easy to see every little hair in her eyelashes, and even the smallest skin imperfections. She simply looked real. Even better than any npc I remember in Alyx. I do believe that some of Olivia's face textures are 4k-res like Alyx, and also some of the textures on your own hands, but I have not seen any textures of that quality elsewhere in the game. Some places, and checking out some objects, you can spot medium/low-res textures, but Lone Echo was never designed for the full clarity of the Index. 

Using CV1 ss 2.0 with TAA and 2xMSAA, I also got solid 90 fps, but CV1 ss 2.0 + TAA + 4xMSAA also pulled me down to 45 fps in demanding locations. That means I get about same performance using CV1 ss 2.0 (17 mill pixel per image) + TAA + 2xMSAA as I get with Index res 200% (18 mill pixels per image) + 4xMSAA. I'd say that's more or less the same level of performance, indicating no performance impact of Revive - or an extremely small performance impact. It's my impression that persons claiming Revive causes severe performance degradation have no clue what they are talking about - or maybe they had some rig-specific problem - or maybe had a bad Revive experience a long time ago. The latest Revive 2.1.1 works close to flawlessly, it feels as if I'm using native Oculus drivers with the Index. 

One place I noticed a few semi-flickering textures, but only for some special windows and in the periphery - not sure I'd be able to notice that with the smaller fov of the CV1, and you can see much more clearly with the Index. Maybe the Index also can reveal some limitations you just don't notice with the CV1. 

I'm much more positive about using Lone Echo res 200% with 4xMSAA and no TAA, but that's only due to the brute force of the RTX 3090. Index controllers worked perfectly. The big problem with Lone Echo and Revive was always with the helmet button, which you activate with the left index finger. Using Revive and the Index, the helmet button is on my left cheek bone, just below the hmd. I tested it 10 times, it worked every time. Really never noticed I was using Knuckles and not Touch - just had to remember to use the left trackpad for the game menu - and to release my grip when seleting menu items. 

Interesting how performance with Lone Echo 2 will be - and which hmd I'll end up using... 

- or better: The Mona Lisa Overdrive Index Res 500 % Experiment 😁

Some years ago HTC collaborated with employees at the French museum Louvre to show the Mona Lisa painting in VR. They made this quite amazing app, which only supports Index and Vive (you can start the app with an Oculus hmd, but you have no controller support, not even gamepad):

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1172310/Mona_Lisa_Beyond_The_Glass/

With this app you get to see the famous painting in VR - for free, and much closer than you're allowed in the real world. Also if you visit Louvre, you need to stand in line for 1-2 hours to see the painting, and you're only given 30 seconds to see it due to thousands of visitors visiting each day.  More info here:

https://arts.vive.com/us/articles/projects/art-photography/mona_lisa_beyond_the_glass/

- btw, I've already introduced this app in the general thread:

https://forums.oculusvr.com/t5/General/The-Anti-Covid-19-VR-Vacation-or-Travel-the-World-from-Home/td-p/823107/

The main problem with this free app is that it seems super-soaked in temporal antialiasing (TAA), or maybe HTC downscaled the res, at least it looks extremely blurry with Index res 100%. Using my old GTX 1080 I could take it to about res 200%, but not much further, and res 200% is still blurry. 

After getting the RTX 3090, I thought I could do better than res 200%. I started with res 400% - that actually worked great, outside the museum I got 45 fps, but 90 fps inside. Vram use was little over 8GB. Then made the last experiment and pushed res to the 500 % - note that the res scale does not go any higher in SteamVR, lol. Still got 45 fps outside the museum, but now also 45 fps inside, not big deal because you stand still and look at things in this app. Vram use now climbed to 10.2 GB, so 8GB may not longer be enough - but 12GB cards should still do fine. 

Truth told, res 1000% would probably be even better, lol - res 500% looks about as sharp as many other games and apps do when pushing res 200%. Like pyroth309 once stated, it seems you reduce TAA blur a lot by using extreme res. 

Looking at the wooden floor, going from 400% to 500% made the textures on the wooden floor look much more detailed - thus the floor looked much closer to expected real-world appearance. Also paintings look so much better. I have a feeling that this app will look best using oled, but you can fix the lcd shortcomings by using extreme res. 

In short, Mona Lise on res overdrive is an awesome experience - if you have the gpu horsepower to do that 😎

Interesting info on possible Index 2 tracking...

Quote: 

1000 Hz Markerless Inside-Out Tracking for Index 2 Revealed in New Patent

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/ovo717/1000_hz_markerless_insideout_tracking_for_index_2/

Not holding my breath for anything right now - fully satisfied with the Index and the awesome/perfect external tracking.