The Index thread (please keep to subject)

Had some time with Revive today. Some mixed feelings, but when Revive works, it doesn't just work ok or nicely, it's perfect. Revive is very easy to install - just 90 mb and it automatically integrates with SteamVR. Using Revive you can get 90 fps just like using the CV1 and everything will be perfectly smooth. Fun thing, my best experience today was probably playing Lucky's Tale - in 120 Hz - using Revive. Felt completely like using Touch, the game performance was smooth as silk - and no SDE at all. Sound was great too.  

Also tried Lone Echo, it worked, but I had to reduce resolution from 2.0 to 1.1 to get acceptable performance. When doing so the game looked nice, but I probably like CV1 ss 2.0 + asw 2.0 better, because even when using the Index res 1.1 is quite blurry in the distance. Using a 2080Ti may help a lot here. Lone Echo res 2.0 using the Index looked simply awesome, but sadly I'm confident that a 2080 Ti can't provide 90 fps using res 2.0. 

My conclusion today is that when you can run a game in 90 fps - or maybe 120/144 Hz - then Revive can be utterly amazing (like in Kin too), but if your rig can't get 80 or 90 fps - as the minimum - then Revive may provide a significant worse experience than native CV1. Some games may not (yet) work correctly using Revive, for example Trover didn't work correctly, but I've also maxed out the graphics settings for the CV1 and didn't feel like spending a lot of time lowering settings.

For now I'm left with the impression that very demanding games like Lone Echo, where I really need help from asw 2.0, probably are better played on the CV1 than the Index. But games/apps that work perfectly in 90+ fps, like Lucky's Tale, TheBlu and Kin, work best on the Index using Revive. TheBlu (Abyss) didn't have anything close to deep blacks using the Index, oled is much better here even with the spud, but it was still acceptable - using the flashlights grey did become more dark-ish. In general I'm not much bothered by the Index not being able to make true/deep blacks.

Another issue is that Revive only sees the games/apps on your default hdd location - and I've got 4 x 500GB partitions just for CV1 games and apps. Only being able to see one and me having to switch default location to access certain games and apps is annoying.

I'm still thinking that keeping Index for Steam games, while having a Rift(S) HMD for Oculus games/apps may be the most optimal solution. 

BTW, Skyrim using Knuckles worked perfectly today (loading new Community Knuckles setup), felt even better than Touch - and so did Doom VFR - in 120 Hz too. 120 Hz massively increases presence, but I still need a faster gpu than GTX 1080 for 120 hz in those games - SteamVR lowers super sampling a lot when 120 Hz is active.  

RuneSR2 said:

Had some time with Revive today. Some mixed feelings, but when Revive works, it doesn't just work ok or nicely, it's perfect. Revive is very easy to install - just 90 mb and it automatically integrates with SteamVR. Using Revive you can get 90 fps just like using the CV1 and everything will be perfectly smooth. Fun thing, my best experience today was probably playing Lucky's Tale - in 120 Hz - using Revive. Felt completely like using Touch, the game performance was smooth as silk - and no SDE at all. Sound was great too.  

Also tried Lone Echo, it worked, but I had to reduce resolution from 2.0 to 1.1 to get acceptable performance. When doing so the game looked nice, but I probably like CV1 ss 2.0 + asw 2.0 better, because even when using the Index res 1.1 is quite blurry in the distance. Using a 2080Ti may help a lot here. Lone Echo res 2.0 using the Index looked simply awesome, but sadly I'm confident that a 2080 Ti can't provide 90 fps using res 2.0. 

My conclusion today is that when you can run a game in 90 fps - or maybe 120/144 Hz - then Revive can be utterly amazing (like in Kin too), but if your rig can't get 80 or 90 fps - as the minimum - then Revive may provide a significant worse experience than native CV1. Some games may not (yet) work correctly using Revive, for example Trover didn't work correctly, but I've also maxed out the graphics settings for the CV1 and didn't feel like spending a lot of time lowering settings.

For now I'm left with the impression that very demanding games like Lone Echo, where I really need help from asw 2.0, probably are better played on the CV1 than the Index. But games/apps that work perfectly in 90+ fps, like Lucky's Tale, TheBlu and Kin, work best on the Index using Revive. TheBlu (Abyss) didn't have anything close to deep blacks using the Index, oled is much better here even with the spud, but it was still acceptable - using the flashlights grey did become more dark-ish. In general I'm not much bothered by the Index not being able to make true/deep blacks.

Another issue is that Revive only sees the games/apps on your default hdd location - and I've got 4 x 500GB partitions just for CV1 games and apps. Only being able to see one and me having to switch default location to access certain games and apps is annoying.

I'm still thinking that keeping Index for Steam games, while having a Rift(S) HMD for Oculus games/apps may be the most optimal solution. 

BTW, Skyrim using Knuckles worked perfectly today (loading new Community Knuckles setup), felt even better than Touch - and so did Doom VFR - in 120 Hz too. 120 Hz massively increases presence, but I still need a faster gpu than GTX 1080 for 120 hz in those games - SteamVR lowers super sampling a lot when 120 Hz is active.  

Time for you to open up that wallet again :D

Considering how much you care about high levels of ss I'm surprised you didn't go for a 2080ti yet.

You can also get a 2080 Super for about $700. The 2080 ti is a bit overpriced. I bought it but that was my VR junkie mind at work. But since you like pushing ss up so high a 2080ti will suit your needs better. 

I haven't tried Revive yet. I was worried the performance would be bad. Glad to hear you were getting good frames. Were you able to play Defector? 

I played FO4 VR today for a good bit. It works fine with the community bindings. I just had to get used to the trackpad. It's the worst thing about the Index controller imho. 

RuneSR2 said:

BTW, I just compared Index speakers to some other open headphones, or speakers if you will, which also are made to provide 3D sound. I have two sets of open headphones - the first one is the this one with 40mm driver units:


Just comparing normal stereo output these open headphones are quite a lot better than the Index speakers - actually these headphones have even better bass than the CV1 and even more fidelity than the Index, but Index is not bad when not comparing the bass. (I use the above wireless headphones for normal pancake gaming, so I'm quite familiar with the sound quality also in games.) 

I used this simple song for testing, if played right you should be able to nearly feel the bass in your stomach even if you're only using headphones ;-) - but I'm using the cd version of the song, this YouTube version doesn't get the bass completely right, probably due to sound compression:

I also compared using a set with 50mm driver units, and these headphones have truly awesome bass - but back then I paid the same for that set as the Index kit, so it's an unfair comparison. Maybe needless to say the Index is not even close to achieving comparable sound regarding all of the sound spectrum:


According to Valve the Index speakers have 40Hz - 24KHz frequency response, but 40 Hz isn't really good (but probably extremely much better than Rift-S ;-) The wireless Sony headphones shown above both have frequency responses of 12Hz - 24Khz, and then there's the question of membrane quality (magnet material) and size of the driver units. Needless to say there're world of sound difference between 12 and 40 Hz. To my knowledge Oculus never revealed the frequency response of CV1. 

In short, Index has nice speakers, and they do work great in games (especially when people are talking), but they don't cover the same sound spectrum as normal medium to high-end headphones, especially when it comes to the bass. 

I very much appreciate your taking the time to compare specs between the Index speakers and various cans which you have around the house. I've never really seen it done among youtubers and common reviewers who I gather, aren't truly into hi fidelity. I've only ever owned the CV1 and when I read persons describing the purported 3D soundstage as having deep-bass, it's a bit roll-of-the-eyes.

Having said this, CV1 sound quality is passable and perfectly fine for what it is - and due to the simplicity of just putting on the HMD and it being easier to get in and out of VR with again, passable quality, I've never bothered with my external amplified Senn HD280s or HD600 opens (with a frequency response 12 - 40500 Hz / 40mm driver). 

The Index speakers had me intrigued, with the design and placement just off the ear, in relation to soundstage and better localisation and spatial cues (than something on ear) but of course with such small drivers I'm not expecting a great deal of performance. I do suspect when my Index arrives, that I'll setup the system with the open HD600s for me, the stock Index speakers for the kids. 

Are the Index speakers easy enough to remove and reinstall? And do they feel of quality-enough to withstand regular swapping? 

parsecn said:

I very much appreciate your taking the time to compare specs between the Index speakers and various cans which you have around the house. I've never really seen it done among youtubers and common reviewers who I gather, aren't truly into hi fidelity. I've only ever owned the CV1 and when I read persons describing the purported 3D soundstage as having deep-bass, it's a bit roll-of-the-eyes.

Having said this, CV1 sound quality is passable and perfectly fine for what it is - and due to the simplicity of just putting on the HMD and it being easier to get in and out of VR with again, passable quality, I've never bothered with my external amplified Senn HD280s or HD600 opens (with a frequency response 12 - 40500 Hz / 40mm driver). 

The Index speakers had me intrigued, with the design and placement just off the ear, in relation to soundstage and better localisation and spatial cues (than something on ear) but of course with such small drivers I'm not expecting a great deal of performance. I do suspect when my Index arrives, that I'll setup the system with the open HD600s for me, the stock Index speakers for the kids. 

Are the Index speakers easy enough to remove and reinstall? And do they feel of quality-enough to withstand regular swapping? 

HD 600 definitely will be way beyond the Index' sound capabilities:



Still the Index speakers aren't bad - it's just not real high fidelity. Personally I'd avoid closed headphones in VR, it'll simply get too hot for me - that's the great thing about the Index speakers, they'll keep your ears cool (even more cool than CV1) - and you'll get some sort of spatial 3D-like sound (CV1 did that too, but Index does it better, but with less bass). I have not tried to remove the Index speakers - they do feel like high-end (metal) quality. I'm going to use the Index speakers and I'm not going to replace them, my comparison with other open headphones was just to illustrate some shortcomings. I'll test the Index bass some more later today. 

MowTin said:

Time for you to open up that wallet again :D

Considering how much you care about high levels of ss I'm surprised you didn't go for a 2080ti yet.

You can also get a 2080 Super for about $700. The 2080 ti is a bit overpriced. I bought it but that was my VR junkie mind at work. But since you like pushing ss up so high a 2080ti will suit your needs better. 

I haven't tried Revive yet. I was worried the performance would be bad. Glad to hear you were getting good frames. Were you able to play Defector? 

I played FO4 VR today for a good bit. It works fine with the community bindings. I just had to get used to the trackpad. It's the worst thing about the Index controller imho. 

I'd didn't get 2080 Ti because it's too slow - let me explain, before your blood pressure rises too much ;) 

Below are average benchmark results based on 35 different games. 2080 Ti performance is set to 100% and other video cards are compared to the 2080 Ti:



In 1920x1080 2080 Ti is 43% faster than a GTX 1080, but it rises to 79 % in 4K. Then we can discuss if 4K results will represent VR performance when adding tons of ss more than 2K (1920x1080) results. Or maybe it's something in-between. 
My problem is that when I crank up ss and other visual settings in games, according to Oculus Tray Tool my performance is often close to 45 fps. If I get 2080 Ti I can't be sure to go from 45 fps to perfect 90 fps in the games where I really want the extra performance. Paying for 2080 Ti only to find out that Lone Echo still doesn't make the cut and still goes down to 45 fps wouldn't make me in a very good mood - and a few 2080 Ti owners did tell me that using res 2.0 in CV1 Lone Echo (all other settings maxed) didn't make the 90 fps cut. 
Granted, asw 2.0 helps a lot, and it's a different situation with the Index, because sub-90 fps feels worse than when using CV1. 
In short - I want my next video card to be at least 100 % faster than a GTX 1080 - also I'm trying to keep my rig small, 200-250W max would be nice for the video card's power consumption - so it's not easy to upgrade ;)
BTW, I've been playing the video card upgrade game since I got my Voodoo Graphics in 1996. Back then it was about getting pure 85 fps in pancake games instead of 42 fps (vsync). Serious Sam and Q3A in pure 85 fps 1600x1200 (using Geforce3) were god-like experiences - it was like the screen disappeared in 85 fps/hz and you could stick your arm though it, lol. Now it's about 90+ fps in VR, seems like nothing has changed - and I still want at least 100% more performance to move forward. It's the only way to be sure that 45 fps always will change to 90 fps. I'd love a 2080 Ti Super consuming no more than 220W, thanks  B)

MowTin said:

I haven't tried Revive yet. I was worried the performance would be bad. Glad to hear you were getting good frames. Were you able to play Defector? 

I played FO4 VR today for a good bit. It works fine with the community bindings. I just had to get used to the trackpad. It's the worst thing about the Index controller imho. 

I'm using Ultra settings in Defector and the game performs nicely thanks to asw 2.0 using the CV1. Using Revive Defector started up perfectly (music is ok, but less bass than CV1), but Defector doesn't work with ss (and the Oculus Tray Tool) causing the game to be quite blurry but still very hardware demanding using the CV1 (badly coded, poorly optimized?).
As you may imagine, starting my saved game using Ultra settings the Index didn't exactly result in better performance, lol. Performance was really bad, but Knuckles worked perfectly like Touch. My only problem being missing a button to activate the option menu, maybe I overlooked it - so had to close and restart the game to change options. But graphics looked much better than CV1 and there was no more SDE. 
Now I'm faced with two choices - play the game using Ultra settings on the CV1, or trying to reduce settings a lot to get acceptable performance on the Index. Right now I'm considering using the CV1, because Revive in my opinion is best when you're sure to get perfect 90+ fps, and that's probably not going to happen in Defector (Ultra settings) even if I got a 2080 Ti. Maybe I'll give it another shot later and take all settings down to the lowest possible for a start. At least the German dude got it working quite good using 1.7.0 Revive (he's using a 2080 Ti):


I'm using the latest pre-release 1.7.1 Revive version. Be careful with Revive, many games and apps don't work and may crash your rig - tried that a few times yesterday. Get the pre-release versions here:


Revive is about patience if you want to find the hidden gems (games that work perfectly on your rig) - I think the Revive devs have to add support for a game or app in order for it to work correctly (I love to watch short film using Oculus Video, but that app crashed using Revive). Don't expect to install Revive and suddenly be able to play all your Oculus games. Older games like Dreadhalls worked perfectly - much better than on the CV1 (much better graphics, perfect Touch-like controls, perfect 90 or 120 Hz), but several other games were unplayable (like Fugl). 
In short, I doubt I'll be able to play Stormland or Asgard's Wrath using Revive - or I think it may translate to a more poor experience than using a Rift HMD. But Index works awesome playing SteamVR games. Doom VFR never - ever - performed or looked this awesome on the CV1. 

@RuneSR2
Thanks for this evaluation - been following the spacial audio path for some time and good to see a comprehensive comparison.

I had always treated the CV1 as the best rated audio/VR platform - especially under the brief that the previous management had to ensure quality - due in part to certain "requirements". Was kinda surprised to see that abandoned for the Rift-S setup.

I wonder can you say if the INDEX is a better audio experience that the CV1?

RuneSR2 said:

My problem is that when I crank up ss and other visual settings in games, according to Oculus Tray Tool my performance is often close to 45 fps. If I get 2080 Ti I can't be sure to go from 45 fps to perfect 90 fps in the games where I really want the extra performance. 

Just to clarify something, You're performance drops to 45 because your PC is not able to deliver 90 fps. Your PC might be delivering 80fps or 70 fps or 60fps. For those cases, you will go from 45fps to 90fps. 

If by 2.0 you mean pixel density 2.0, then no GPU on earth can deliver that. But with the Index or Rift-S there's no need to crank up the ss to those levels anymore. Doom VFR with just a touch of supersampling on a 2080ti / Index @ 120Hz is silky smooth crystal clear.

I was playing Doom VFR yesterday and I was overwhelmed by how good it was. It's literally what I hoped an FPS would be like in VR one day. 

kevinw729 said:

@RuneSR2
Thanks for this evaluation - been following the spacial audio path for some time and good to see a comprehensive comparison.

I had always treated the CV1 as the best rated audio/VR platform - especially under the brief that the previous management had to ensure quality - due in part to certain "requirements". Was kinda surprised to see that abandoned for the Rift-S setup.

I wonder can you say if the INDEX is a better audio experience that the CV1?

Just tried Fantasynth using the Index:


That bass is a challenge even for the CV1. The bass wasn't that bad using the Index, actually slightly better than I expected, but not as deep as the CV1. Also the bass caused some resonance from the Index, but you may also experience some slight resonance from CV1, because Fantasynth may be close to a worst-case-scenario when it comes to provide a precise deep bass. 
And what's worse than $100 Bills in Beat Saber? 


That song is a clear win for CV1, Index has bass, but not at all like the CV1. That song always blows me away using CV1, it didn't using the Index. But then on to Escape the female vocal sounded so much better on the Index than the CV1, like a completely new experience:


CV1 wins when it comes to bass, but I guess Index dominates in everything above something like 500Hz. Vacations Simulator sounded much better on the Index - but you don't have a lot of bass in that game. In most games I'd probably go for the Index, but when it comes to in-game music with awesome bass CV1 wins hands down. Although playing Splinter Cell you may hear a pin drop 10 meters away using the Index, but not using CV1. Playing Evasion sounds when blasting robots was great using the Index. 
In short I really depends on your preferences and the app/game. 

MowTin said:

RuneSR2 said:

My problem is that when I crank up ss and other visual settings in games, according to Oculus Tray Tool my performance is often close to 45 fps. If I get 2080 Ti I can't be sure to go from 45 fps to perfect 90 fps in the games where I really want the extra performance. 

Just to clarify something, You're performance drops to 45 because your PC is not able to deliver 90 fps. Your PC might be delivering 80fps or 70 fps or 60fps. For those cases, you will go from 45fps to 90fps. 

If by 2.0 you mean pixel density 2.0, then no GPU on earth can deliver that. But with the Index or Rift-S there's no need to crank up the ss to those levels anymore. Doom VFR with just a touch of supersampling on a 2080ti / Index @ 120Hz is silky smooth crystal clear.

I was playing Doom VFR yesterday and I was overwhelmed by how good it was. It's literally what I hoped an FPS would be like in VR one day. 

Of course you're right that all my 60+ fps VR games would be lifted to at least 90 fps using 2080 Ti, but I still would like to lift nearly all 45 fps games to 90 fps - also I might wait for 7nm cards from Nvidia and hope for reduced power consumption.

BTW, maybe the need to upgrade isn't that big sticking to 90 fps/hz. I just had a great time using Revive, actually much better than yesterday. Tried to set another HDD partition as default in the Oculus app, and now all the Revived games and apps got recognized with images - they didn't last night (just got black boxes with text), maybe one of the kids was downloading something big... 
I couldn't get SteamVR Psychonauts to work using the Knuckles, but it worked perfectly using Revive, lol. Even forcing ss 2.0 in-game (=pixel density 2.0) the game worked flawlessly (Psychonauts has an in-game slider for ss/pixel density). Pixel density 2.0 sure made Index shine. 
Now on to Beat Saber - looked awesome pixel density 1.0 - actually looked much like CV1 pixel density 2.0 - but res/ss/pixel-density 1.0 is now based on the Index res and the extra subpixels help a lot. Tracking in "Revive Beat Saber" was the best I've ever tried - this was in just 90 Hz - but it simply felt more alive and precise - never thought I'd experience that. Beat Saber was solid 90 fps. 
Using Index and Revive, Vacation Simulator was also solid 90 fps (CV1 ss 2.0 may be slightly sharper in Vacation Simulator though), and the same for Evasion (Doom-like shooter). Evasion was one game where the SDE annoyed me - that game now played perfectly using Revive on the Index. Sacralith was perfect 90 fps too - also using Revive - tracking was perfect, could hold bow and arrows so close to the HMD that the Knuckles touched the HMD - or behind my back - and never lost tracking. 
Affected The Manor may be a no-go for the Index though. The Index is way too bright - it completely ruined the atmosphere and also made the textures hard to see. For now Affected The Manor is the only app which seemed completely ruined using a LCD instead of OLED screen. 
I might give Defector and Trover another shot with Revive later.