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CrashFu
Inspiring
July 21, 2016
Question

We have to stop associating all VR with motion controls...

Things I see Vive-owners saying on social media on a near-daily basis:

"The Vive  is the only real VR because it has motion controls!"

"Without motion controls, VR is just a monitor on your face"

"Why would I play this game if it doesn't have motion controls in it?"

"This game is incredible because motion controls! (no other reason given)"

"You can't get immersion without motion controls."

"I'll buy anything with motion controls in it!"

Things I see my fellow Rifters saying here:

"Oh yeah well the Rift WILL be the best AFTER we get motion controls!"

"These games are fun I guess but they'd be better if they used Touch"

"Every game I want to see in the future involves motion controls."

Things I remember Wii-owners saying:

"I can't wait until the Wii comes out, motion controls are going to revolutionize gaming!"

"Oh wow, Wii Sports is the most incredible game I've ever played! Motion controls, yay!"

"Huh... motion controls sure got old fast. All these developers just shoe-horned them in unnecessarily thinking we'd buy anything involving the wii-mote, instead of actually making the games good."

"All these motion-control games are the same. I'm not buying any more."

"How much store credit can I get for this Wii?  You say you're already overstocked?"


This pattern worries me.  Thanks to the Vive craze, a LOT of people are now looking at VR headsets as just an accessory TO motion control gaming, rather than the other way around.  So what's going to happen to VR after everyone inevitably gets bored of motion controls again?  Will the VR platforms thrive even after people become jaded with motion controls?  Wil people jump ship from the Vive to the Rift, because we have content that doesn't rely entirely on motion controls to be fun?  Or will they just conclude that all VR was a fad?

Or will motion controls actually survive past the "novelty" stage this time around?  Will developers have learned from the Wii's short time in the lime-light (and the utter failure of Kinect) and actually go to the effort of making GOOD games that just happen to involve motion controls,  or will they flood the VR platforms with glorified tech demos and half-assed shovelware that rely entirely on the novelty of motion controls, after seeing how easily impressed consumers are with such content on the Vive?

Believe me, I'm as eager as the rest of you to get my hands on Touch, but much like the people raving about the Vive now, and everyone hyped for the Wii when it first came out, this excitement is based on what could potentially be rather than anything we know for sure.  The future of the entire VR industry shouldn't rely on whether our expectations for motion controls are met, because then if motion controls prove to be a short-lived novelty, VR would die with them. People need to see that VR is amazing with OR without motion controls, so that it will survive even if that proves to be a fad.

168 replies

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edmg
Inspiring
July 25, 2016
Yes. One of the biggest threats to VR right now is the Vive fanboys posting bad reviews of any game that doesn't support Vive controllers. Devs produce a VR game, even though they may well lose money on it in the current market, and the fanboys dump on them because it's not the 'right' kind of VR game.

On the plus side, if they do make another VR game, they probably won't bother with Vive support, because it's not worth the hassle.
JED44
Up and Coming
July 25, 2016
@KillCard 

The worst thing is room scale. On paper it sounds interesting but the limitations of room scale movement are hard and fast impossible to get around without making some terrible excuse for design implementation. I mean teleporting? Really? We are just going to accept that as a game mechanic?

In order to explore a virtual world we need to be able to seemlessly walk through out it without restrictions. Roomscale cant ever give us that.. unless the game is specifically designed around it with only having room-sized worlds in the game and they are going to be niche experiences at best.

Take a look at spellfighter VR, Small single dev Skyrim style adventure game with locomotion options, including teleporting (for those susceptible to motion sickness) and traditional stick movement using the trackpads. Uses motion controls for combat so you still end up using more space then standing still as you fight with swords and pistols and magic.  

I would argue the term "room scale" in itself is misleading, and used alot of the time as a narrow definition by Oculus fanboys to attack the Vive and motion controls as if it they do nothing else. 

For motion controller games you need space, its really as simple as that. Touch will require "room" as well. There is also a huge difference between a "room scale" game, which I would argue is one that limits the play area to a room sized space (something like fantastic contraption, Vacate the room VR, or Job Simulator) and motion controller games like Spellfighter VR, Vanishing Realms and Raw Data, which have larger level design, locomotion options or techniques that fit into the game, and require room to say, swing a sword, aim a pistol, etc. 

Alot of people seem to act as if standard locomotion options are unavailable for the vive. or having a larger 360 play area automatically means you are stuck with just that space. Neither of these are the case. In fact, the best titles for the Vive so far are those that do not limit design in this way. 


edmg
Inspiring
July 25, 2016

JED44 said:

For motion controller games you need space, its really as simple as that.

Alot of people seem to act as if standard locomotion options are unavailable for the vive. or having a larger 360 play area automatically means you are stuck with just that space. Neither of these are the case. In fact, the best titles for the Vive so far are those that do not limit design in this way. 




Motion controllers don't need any more space than a keyboard and mouse. You can use them sitting in front of a monitor, if the games are designed for it. There's nothing that even requires you to use them with a VR headset (except that most require the headset to communicate with the PC).

And there are few, if any, Vive games that have standard locomotion mechanisms. At least 90% are roomscale + teleport. Spell Fighter had a particularly bad variation on teleport, where you click on a spot and have to wait while a mannequin walks to that sport before you can teleport.... and the path-finding is so bad that the mannequin often can't find its way to that spot.

The Vive fanboys are pretty much fanatical about not having traditional locomotion, because that's not roomscale, and roomscale is The One True VR.
JED44
Up and Coming
July 25, 2016

edmg said:


JED44 said:

For motion controller games you need space, its really as simple as that.

Alot of people seem to act as if standard locomotion options are unavailable for the vive. or having a larger 360 play area automatically means you are stuck with just that space. Neither of these are the case. In fact, the best titles for the Vive so far are those that do not limit design in this way. 




Motion controllers don't need any more space than a keyboard and mouse. You can use them sitting in front of a monitor, if the games are designed for it. There's nothing that even requires you to use them with a VR headset (except that most require the headset to communicate with the PC).

And there are few, if any, Vive games that have standard locomotion mechanisms. At least 90% are roomscale + teleport. Spell Fighter had a particularly bad variation on teleport, where you click on a spot and have to wait while a mannequin walks to that sport before you can teleport.... and the path-finding is so bad that the mannequin often can't find its way to that spot.

The Vive fanboys are pretty much fanatical about not having traditional locomotion, because that's not roomscale, and roomscale is The One True VR.


Motion controllers need more space than a keyboard and mouse because you move to use them...if you are using the same amount of space as a keyboard and mouse what you are talking about is a gamepad. (Have you used motion controllers yet?) For motion controls you need at least a 180 degree circle with an arm length radius that extends from your feet to slightly above of your head (theoretically) and optimally you would need a 360 arm length circle around you. that is without giving any room to dodge or step. 

How do you expect to play dead and buried without ducking and aiming? how do you expect to play rip coil without throwing and catching? or the Climb without reaching?

Spellfighter still had the option for traditional movement. (also the pathfinding for it wasnt great, but the idea behind it was so that people could not abuse teleport in combat, give the guy a break its one dev and the game is free). 

What vive fanboys are you talking about? I frequent R Vive and the discussion forums on steam for VR games and most of the vive owners there are pro locomotion options...in fact almost all of them ask for traditional options as well as teleporting and other various locomotion techniques (walk about method, walk/ run in place) Unless you can give me some sources I am going to conclude that is simply uninformed rhetoric. 
CrashFuAuthor
Inspiring
July 25, 2016


@CrashFu, while you might know the reasoning behind that statement, it could also be construed that by saying 'we should stop associating all VR with motion controls' would imply that you don't think motion controls work well in any VR application.  You know, because if you stop associating ALL of VR with motion controls, you would be disassociating some games/apps that happen to work the best with tracked inputs.  Sorry if I misunderstood your actual motives with the thread, it has generated some constructive debates nonetheless.  


Oh jeez you're right, I see now how that caused some confusion.  I'm glad that the thread stayed mostly civil despite the misunderstanding, guess that just shows what a mature community we have here, huh? :sweat_smile:


@JED44  - I don't know if the definitions are set in stone, but the way I interpret the different "scales" of VR is as follows:

Sitting VR - Input method can be anything. Game does not require the player to physically turn much farther than 90 degrees in either direction  (because you can twist around in a chair to look behind you, sure, but it's not very comfortable and makes certain input methods MUCH harder to use, such as KBaM).   If the game uses motion controls, it will not require or implicitly encourage excessively 'large' or 'violent' actions (might be better ways to phrase that) that would put nearby objects in risk of being struck by controllers, and keep most interactions in the space in front of the player.

Standing VR - Input method restricted to devices player can carry around, IE gamepad, motion controllers, remote, or just the VR headset itself.  Activity in the experience can take place  all around the player, IE 360 degree play area.  If motion controls are used, wide or aggressive movements can be allowed.  Player may be expected or encouraged to lean, duck, or reach, but is never required or encouraged to take even a single step in any direction.  Play area must be an open space just a little wider than player's full reach, for safety reasons.

Room-Scale VR - Same as the above in every way, but player IS encouraged or explicitly required to physically walk around in a larger area, and the game/experience area will be based on a volume of space (IE a room, although it doesn't necessarily have to be enclosed)  instead of the area around a single point.


Does that seem about right to everyone?

Also, I think I have a habit of referring to everything as a game or with game terms, even when I'm intending to talk about both games AND non-game experiences.  Sorry if that confuses or misleads anyone!
It's hard being the voice of reason when you're surrounded by unreasonable people.
JED44
Up and Coming
July 25, 2016
@CrashFu that is probably the clearest and best way of defining VR scales I have seen yet. 

 There are certain experiences that end up being kind of up to the user. (For instance I go big when I fight with VR swords and will actively side or back step, dodge, or lunge like a fencer would, but most may just stick to blocking and swinging minimally without moving at all)  In that respect I think going along the lines of what the game actively encourages or requires is a great idea. 




edmg
Inspiring
July 25, 2016

JED44 said:

Motion controllers need more space than a keyboard and mouse because you move to use them..


Uh, no, you don't. There is absolutely nothing about motion controllers that requires you to move to use them. The Leap Motion, for example, was originally designed so you could use hand motions above your keyboard to control things on a computer screen. They only switched to VR use when that turned out to be a larger market.

Again, you're equating motion controllers with 'roomscale'. Motion controllers are just controllers, and completely independent of VR.

(And yes, I have used them. I own a Vive as well as my Rift. I thought that might be obvious from my comments about Vive games. Heck, if I remember correctly, I first used one in about 1991)

JED44
Up and Coming
July 25, 2016

edmg said:


JED44 said:

Motion controllers need more space than a keyboard and mouse because you move to use them..


Uh, no, you don't. There is absolutely nothing about motion controllers that requires you to move to use them. The Leap Motion, for example, was originally designed so you could use hand motions above your keyboard to control things on a computer screen. They only switched to VR use when that turned out to be a larger market.

Again, you're equating motion controllers with 'roomscale'. Motion controllers are just controllers, and completely independent of VR.

(And yes, I have used them. I own a Vive as well as my Rift. I thought that might be obvious from my comments about Vive games. Heck, if I remember correctly, I first used one in about 1991)



Unless you are working off a different definition than I am they absolutely do. (by motion controllers I mean the vive controllers and Touch, unless there is a better term for those inputs)

I have played dozens of titles for the vive and not more than once or twice in bare bones demos  could I keep them right in front of me like a game pad or a keyboard and actually play the game. Have you played any actual motion controller games with leap motion? (I would also argue that hand tracking is not the same thing as motion controls, or whatever term you use to describe touch and the vive motes)

Even in games where I can stand perfectly still to play (I.e. no roomscale) I am still reaching, aiming, swinging, basically all motions that use up more space then a standard Keyboard and mouse.

What vive games have you played where you can keep your hands right in front of you the entire time and complete the game?
Zenbane
Zenbane
Honored Contributor
July 25, 2016

JED44 said:

not more than once or twice in bare bones demos  could I keep them right in front of me like a game pad or a keyboard and actually play the game.
You're completely missing the point.



edmg said:

There is absolutely nothing about motion controllers that requires you to move to use them. The Leap Motion, for example, was originally designed so you could use hand motions above your keyboard to control things on a computer screen. They only switched to VR use when that turned out to be a larger market.

Again, you're equating motion controllers with 'roomscale'. Motion controllers are just controllers, and completely independent of VR.

(And yes, I have used them. I own a Vive as well as my Rift. I thought that might be obvious from my comments about Vive games. Heck, if I remember correctly, I first used one in about 1991)



And everything you described illustrates exactly why folks can adequately label room-scale functionality as a "gimmick." It's software trickery that seems to have fooled an impressive number of folks.

JED44
Up and Coming
July 25, 2016
@edmg @zenbane So what is the point I am missing here? because it seems we are juggling three different inputs methods and everyone has their own idea of what fits in each category 

So  motion controls are input methods such as kinect or leap motion that work off of gestures and movements?

Then tracked controllers are input methods such as Touch and the Vive motes

leaving keyboard and mouse and gamepads in the final category of regular stationary controllers.

If what Edmg is referring to are input methods such a kinect and leap motion, then we are on two entirely different pages and yes, you could use leap motion in the space you would need for a normal stationary controller. If he is trying to refer to touch and the vive motes saying you don't need to move to use them, well at that point you are not even playing a tracked controller game, you are playing a standard stationary controller game (i.e. keyboard and mouse or gamepad) that was not designed for the controllers at all. 

if 99% of touch and vive controller software requires you to move to do anything (i.e. swing, reach, aim), then you can't consider them stationary controllers. 

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