We have to stop associating all VR with motion controls...

tranceology3 said:

What I think most people don't realize about VR is that, 100% NEW games are being developed for VR, there is no REAL game anymore when you are in VR. People think VR needs to have games similar to the big AAA titles that we gamers are used to from the past on our hefty gaming PCs and Consoles. But the truth is, VR is a way of transporting you into a Virtual Enviroment, where you believe you are there! Now, when you are there, what is it that is FUN, EXCITING to do?! And this is where the content needs to be created from the ground up.

Well I've beaten quite a few VR games so far:
https://forums.oculus.com/community/discussion/comment/405575/#Comment_405575

And I'm pretty sure it is entirely possible to have AAA games in VR.

What VR games have you beaten with motion controls @zenbane?

AAA games will no doubt come to VR - I was just stating that since we have many, many great AAA games for 2D gaming, people think that these are the experiences we should be playing in VR. But most games in VR will be new concepts, or similar ones like recreating physical games we already have (pool, ping pong, rec room, kingspray, just socializing in a room, as if you are really there with these people. Most of the fun games with motion controls in VR are games that are just fun in real life - but incapable for people to do or own, and this is how VR perfectly succeeds. 

The only AAA game available for motion controllers is Vanishing Realms. Unless I missed a sneaky ninja AAA game somewhere?

But what does that have to do with your argument? You are making arguments towards VR as a whole, not just those with motion controllers, "people think that these are the experiences we should be playing in VR. But most games in VR will be new concepts."

Also, your argument implies that "new concepts" cannot also be AAA games. What makes you think that something can either be a AAA game or a new concept? These are not mutually exclusive.

Besides, if everything you say is true, then all those folks with a Vive wouldn't have made such a fuss to get Revive working. Let's not forgot that Revive lets people with motion controllers finally get away from their monotonous experiences and start enjoying some quality AAA games in VR.

Zenbane said:

The only AAA game available for motion controllers is Vanishing Realms. Unless I missed a sneaky ninja AAA game somewhere?

But what does that have to do with your argument? You are making arguments towards VR as a whole, not just those with motion controllers, "people think that these are the experiences we should be playing in VR. But most games in VR will be new concepts."

Also, your argument implies that "new concepts" cannot also be AAA games. What makes you think that something can either be a AAA game or a new concept? These are not mutually exclusive.

Besides, if everything you say is true that all those folks with a Vive wouldn't have made such a fuss to get Revive working. Let's not forgot that Revive lets people with motion controllers finally get away from their monotonous experiences and start enjoying some quality AAA games in VR.

Define a AAA game please. As far as I am aware I don't think there are any AAA games built from the ground up for VR yet. I always just thought AAA meant games that use a large budget. There can be crap AAA games, and good AAA games. 

My argument is people keep trying to picture their self playing current, successful 2D AAA games in VR, and unfortunately that is just not how VR is going to deliver the best experience. We will need new gaming concepts in VR - with as many ways we naturally function in the real world (like motion controllers) carried over into the virtual world, then, those games will be considered the new AAA titles further out in the future when it's safe for a developer to invest millions of dollars into that title. Many people are still having a hard time understanding how VR works, and what it is truly intended for, it's because one VR system lacks a major component that defines what I think is the most compelling VR feature at this time...that is motion controllers. Gaming in VR will be a very small percentage in the future. It's as if we just invented an affordable, efficient Television/PC Monitor, and are only using it for displaying video games, when in fact, it is capable of so many other applications and entertainment. Now, with tracked controllers it opens up a whole new industry for applications, entertainment, business, travel, shopping, communication... VR will change the world, literally - and motion controllers will be equivalent to the mouse we use today on our PCs; as of now tracked controllers are the most efficient way of interacting in the VR world.

And this whole Revive thing...let it go already. I use Revive, specifically for Vtime, because my bro in law uses my Gear VR, and we both like socializing together in it - no where do I use it because I have monotonous experiences with Vive content. You're theory that Vive people are insistent on using Revive for content that is better quality than Vive content is theorycrafting, there is no way you will ever prove that this is why people who own Vives use it.    

Now can we talk about the overuse of the words "theorycrafting" and "peasantry?"  I'd like to banish the word "salty" as well.  :-)

I don't think it's wrong to say that there are more higher quality sit-down games (full games, not early access) for VR than tracked controller games.  If anything, Vive/Steam kind of shows me why Oculus wanted to wait for the content before they released their controllers.

Right, like, it's not the concept of 1:1 motion controls that I think is overrated (and that people will get bored of after a few months' time)  it's what (little that) has been done with them so far and the fact that developers aren't bothering to make interesting games because they know that ANYTHING with motion controls is going to impress people right now.

Like, I would gladly have played Lucky's Tale or Chronos or Edge of Nowhere or Subnautica or BlazeRush or most of the other gamepad VR games I have for my Rift if they were just regular old traditional 2D games;  the experience would have been FAR less immersive, but these are all high-quality games that could stand on their own merits even without the awe of being immersed in their worlds.

But you could not PAY me to play that "Brookhaven Experiment" game if it was just a traditional 2D FPS; without the motion controls it would just be an extremely, extremely watered down knockoff of Killing Floor 1.  I wouldn't spend money on Job Simulator, with how little content it has, if it didn't involve the novelty of VR and motion controls.  And without VR and motion controls, Budget Cuts would just be a completely nondescript and overly simplistic FPS, so who would care?

The longer motion controls are around, and the more you use them, the less novelty they have.  You'll still like them as an input method sure, because unlike the Wii or Kinect were, they're actually precise enough to not be frustrating.  But you're not going to automatically think a terrible, under-developed game is a golden masterpiece just because it happens to have motion-control support. And if you truly appreciate the technology of VR, you're going to enjoy any VR game if it's a really good game and the world is immersive (or at least really cool to look at), regardless of the input method or perspective involved.

But if you really think that motion controls and a first person perspective DO automatically make any game an objectively better VR experience than gamepad VR, then why bother making new VR content at all? You can just mod motion control support (and first-person views, if necessary) into pretty much any existing game. People have done it with Grand Theft Auto already.  Also, I guess all those high user ratings on Chronos and Edge of Nowhere and such must be lies?  Or were people planning to go back and change their votes to 1s and 2s as soon as the first motion control games hit Oculus Home?

@tranceology3 - since you have a much stronger opinion about AAA games I think you're the one that needs to provide a formal definition. Note that I said, "formal;" which means you can't just conceive a definition that magically makes all your posts valid lol

As for your points... I think @Hanover and @CrashFu covered everything that needs to be said with these last 2 replies.

@zenbane....huh? I want to know what you think..that is all. Note, that you have already avoided one question and one request for how you define AAA. Don't try to avoid these requests by asking another question, that shows insecurity.

@tranceology3  - I think most people on the forums would agree that everything published under the Oculus Studios brand qualifies as a AAA game. Whether you happen to like any given one of those games or not, they've all got AAA funding, AAA graphics, and a AAA level of polish and attention to detail.

That's how you identify Vive-owners at games conferences: they're the ones saying things like "Is VR finally going to get its first AAA game!?"   :neutral:   Poor souls don't know what they've been missing out on all this time. 

@CrashFu It's literally been 4 months since these headsets commercially released. I think that is important to keep in perspective. As for developers not bothering to make interesting games, Look at Vanishing Realms, look at budget cuts,(which I would argue is not an FPS at all. More of a stealthy quirky spy game in the same vein as portal..but for VR) look at Raw Data (one of the first actual meaty titles for motion controller VR, and one of the best VR games out so far even with being early access) Look at Wilsons Heart and The Climb (which one can argue was designed for motion controls and released early) Look at all the different techniques and creative things that independent and even solo developers are coming up with in the meanwhile. 

People are still figuring out what works and trying to balance that with the ridiculously risky proposition of developing in a medium that is neither fully realized nor fully stable. The games are coming, ( I  think you would be hard pressed to find a game console that didn't also suffer from a lack of content at its release) 

Personally I am at that stage where I am disenchanted with the wow factor of motion controls, I stopped buying anything that looked new or novel weeks and weeks ago, and am waiting for releases like Raw Data that provide more substance and meat while still really utilizing the tech. I am also at the same point with the rift. I have bought almost every title out of the handful I actually wanted or was interested in (baring Chronos at this point)

For me, there are as many games on the Rift as on the Vive that I would not touch and am not interested in despite their  use of VR or motion controls. It really comes down to personal preference, but I would not try to lump everyone together and say that everyone praises games just because they have motion controls because that is no more true then saying Oculus users praise every single VR game just because its VR. 

There are some shitty VR games across the board, both using motion controls and traditional game pad input.

before moving on though I would like to say that while I agree with you finding brookhaven lackluster (I have not bought the full game but the demo was very bare after you got used to the scare factor) and I also would not have bought job simulator if It did not come with the vive because it simply wasn't the type of experience or game I wanted to play, (nice family game or little demo, but I did not and would not spend 2 hours playing it) your assessment of budget cuts is very far from the mark.

 Having played the demo, its a game that makes full use of VR and motion controls, and simply would not transition to 2D at all, because it was designed to be a great VR game. ( I am also going to stick with my portal comparison, because you could very well have said that the original portal is just a short overly simplistic puzzle game..who cares.. and that would have totally missed what made that game so great to so many people - in short its really just one of the those games you have to play) 

Also regarding your last paragraph, no one is saying that first person has to be the thing to do with VR, but its what VR tends to do best. It's the biggest strength of the medium. That is not to say that every first person game is worth playing, it really comes down to implementation of gameplay mechanics, world building, and atmosphere more so than just being first person. The issue with modding existing games is that the game was designed for traditional 2D gaming. A majority of the time you simply aren't going to get as good of an experience if the game is not designed from the bottom up with VR in mind.  (E:D is an exception because of the nature of what it is and the use of HOTAS). 

In any case, I can shoot back at you with the same  -  if third person game pad VR games are so great, why are people bothering to innovate and explore new territory with motion controls and first person VR? Why not just stick to the the same game formulas everyone knows and loves?