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Inspiring
October 11, 2023
Solved

[UNRESOLVED as of May 30, 2024] - Quest 3 Controller Tracking Issues

update May 30, 2024: There have been no updates/improvements to controller tracking since Meta Support marked this as solved! Community consensus seems to be that this issue stems from hardware/software limitations with the controllers, specifically the method of tracking (as a software developer working specifically in the machine learning and computer vision space, I agree that this technology is not particularly robust enough to handle some types of movement). If you play games that require fast hand movements and/or dynamic hand positioning, I would recommend not buying a Quest 3, unfortunately. I've heard some anecdotes regarding improved tracking with the Quest Pro controllers, but the improvements are marginal at best - not worth the additional ~$300 for minimal performance gains IMO. My personal recommendation is to stick to Quest 2. Not to detract from the various improvements that the Quest 3 has brought (e.g., color passthrough w/higher resolution, better hand tracking, higher overall hardware specs compared to Quest 2, etc.), but Quest 2 controller tracking is significantly better than the Quest 3's. Ideally, my hope is that Meta will push an update that allows for pairing Quest 2 controllers with the Quest 3, but as of right now, that's just a pipe dream as Meta has given no indication of making these headsets/controllers backwards compatible. While I'm (naively) hopeful that things will change, realistically speaking, I have 0 expectations and a lot of disappointment.

 

tl;dr: I've had a Quest 2 for almost 3 years. I received my Quest 3 today and was very excited to use it. Controller tracking performance is much worse than the Quest 2, at least in the context of games where you swing your arms as fast as you can. This was not a problem for the Quest 2 (unless controllers were physically damaged, e.g., hitting a wall, dropping them, etc.). Don't buy if you play games like Gorilla Tag, Beat Saber, Synth Riders, or any of the other games mentioned throughout this thread!!!

 

Question:
Are there ways to modify the Quest 3's controller tracking such that fast hand movements won't be affected by the prediction-like behavior where the in-game hand moves farther than you swing? When I perform a baseball throwing movement with my hand/arm, the tracking will not keep up and it ends up losing my hand's position for a fraction of a second, causing my in-game hand to be positioned farther away than my hand actually is (this is not an issue with Quest 2 controller tracking).

 

Details/Context:
I primarily use VR for exercise, and I mostly play Gorilla Tag. Gorilla Tag is a game where you play as the upper half of a gorilla, using your arms as your means of locomotion. Basically, you use your arms as if they were your legs, and you can run, climb trees, wall-run, etc. It's an infection-based tagging game where you join a lobby of up to 9 other people, and the game will randomly select a player to be the first tagger. The tagger(s) will continue tagging until everyone in the lobby has been tagged (infection-style), and then a random player will be selected as first tagger; this pattern just continuously repeats.

While the learning curve is pretty steep to play at a high level, there is a growing community of players who are very competitive (approx. 10-20k players based on the communities I participate in - Competitive Gorilla Tag on Discord and Gorilla Tag Competitive on Discord). As a prominent member of this community, people have been seeking my feedback on whether or not the Quest 3 is worth it. While I feel that a majority of the new features are amazing, I have had issues with the controller tracking.

Gorilla Tag is an active game where you're constantly swinging your arms as fast as you can to travel around the map(s) to avoid being tagged. The primary player base for the game is Quest 2 users. Aside from physical damage, most players have not had any problems with controller tracking on the Quest 2, aside from when the controller goes out of the tracking range of the headset (as expected). 

However, the Quest 3 controllers lose tracking during medium-fast to fast hand movement (medium-fast: like playing catch with a friend; fast: throwing a baseball as hard as you can). The consequence of this in the context of Gorilla Tag is that your in-game arm extends to the game's max arm length frequently, causing your hand to collide with the wall/tree/ground and launch you away from the surface. This is a big issue for games/activities involving fast-paced hand movement as it's not nearly as reliable as the Quest 2 controller tracking performance. 

TheAntiSocializer
Honored Contributor
October 24, 2023

Hey everyone, I've connected with the team and they are actively investigating tracking issues like you've mentioned. We'll be working to improve performance, especially for competitive players in games like Gorilla Tag, Supernatural, IB Cricket, and Eleven Table Tennis. We expect to roll some of these improvements in the upcoming releases.

Sometimes it's okay to be a little Bing Chilling

531 replies

Up and Coming
December 11, 2023

How is it that in a 16 page thread related to tracking issues, no one can provide a SINGLE video showing these supposed tracking issues. Claiming they lose tracking in beat saber even with hand tracking disabled, controllers flying away, etc.

The only things I have seen with my  usage of the quest 3 have been good minus the limitations of the less visible LEDs. I think the controller tracking is good enough for what it is.

In the early threads a lot of people stopped commenting because turning off hand tracking fixed their issue.

Also if you look at the early threads people are claiming the tracking is unusable. It is not. Some of these claims are hard to believe because while it is obvious there are some steps backwards in terms of tracking, it's not the worst tracking oculus has ever had.. If you go back to the quest 1 before we had phase sync, and before carrotstein did some masterful work to fix the tracking system. THAT was bad tracking. hard to believe we ever played with tracking that bad.

 

When eleven table tennis first came out on the q3 there was a user who is an adapter designer who had to be first to release a q3 adapter for business reasons. As a result he made an adapter which he though had the best LED visibility. Turns out that adapter had tracking issues which he rectified and now his adapter is said to have very good tracking and the best of all adapters. Whether it is true or not, it's far from the controllers flying 20 ft away that is being claimed in this thread.

I wish someone with a decent skill level would record a mixed reality beat saber video supposedly playing these 10star maps and we can genuinely see tracking issues in a fair and honest way

Participant
December 11, 2023

Dude, I would find it hard to believe that you’re not on the payroll, otherwise your writing sounds like AI. All the gaslighting and appeals to authority read like someone that minored in public relations. 

We don’t care what Taichi, or any other gaming influencer, thinks. Their endorsement does not dictate our lived user experience.

We have no need to provide you video proof of a problem we have that you claim not to experience. It has no bearing on you or your user experience. Multitudes of us have made these reports in earnest. 

No one here believes you’re arguing your points from a place of intellectual honesty.

 

Participant
December 11, 2023

Indeed although I think Meta are smart enough to chose silent treatment versus childish passive aggressive PR. 

Besides that dude, I have since received a replacement controller and unfortunately the issue persists (only left side). As stated previously attempted in different locations etc same issue

Quest 2 has not issues within the same environment. Since it seems vastly more present on one side I suspect a camera/lens defect on mine... I thought for a moment my watch could be the culprit, wearing it on my left wrist but removing it didn't fix it. 

Up and Coming
December 11, 2023

The issue is people are making lots of claims without separating the issues.

Is there an issue where tracking is improved when hand tracking is disabled? Seems like it. If so, oculus can probably improve this.

Are there issues with controllers and or controller firmware? Looks like that was an issue too as oculus seemed to have pushed some updates.

Are there issues because the LEDs in the controller are a LOT less visible than they were with the tracking ring on the quest 2? 100% yes. No question.

But as long as you work around these limitiations I'm not sure I see any difference in tracking quality and speed. And in beat saber where the controller face is decently visible not sure I see any issues.

But the point is you have to be realistic. What are people expecting to achieve by whining about things that can't be improved? At best they let us use the quest 2 controllers with the quest 3. That is the only solution.

But asking oculus to bundle $300 controllers for an issue that is not even an issue for 99% of people? Claiming the default controllers are unusable? The top eleven table tennis players are using the quest 3 in tournaments with real money on the line. The tracking is acceptable enough.

The point is everyone in this thread is complaining about different things. People are all having different tracking issues. How many of them are controller issues. How many are issues where their tracking cameras are broken. Not sure if you would know since the passthrough camera is different now? Gorilla tag, for example seems like an isolated issue with extreme fast movements and the fact that the LEDs of the controller face are hidden due to how high the controller is held, and the new position of the tracking cameras having a certain blindspot.

Participant
December 11, 2023

We want the $5-700 headset we purchased to have performance commensurate with the increased price compared to what was delivered last generation. 

Non-stop appeals to authority, no true Scotsman, strawmans, double talk, and obfuscation of the problem at hand. 

You are a nobody and those of us having issues owe you nothing and our business is with support.

You are a shill. 

This behavior should be preserved on the relevant subreddits for posterity.

 

Up and Coming
December 11, 2023

The performance in games IS better. Lenses are better. Tracking is worse but I have accepted that the small downgrade is worth everything else. Many people feel the same way. Look how many people look at the quest 2 and the perfect tracking ring visibility and just can't go back. I'm the same way. Would I rather have tracking rings than the controllers without? 100% yes. Did oculus make the wrong decision to remove the tracking ring. IMO yes they did. For that matter did anyone complain about the tracking rings of the quest 2? They already had some of the  the smallest and most durable tracking rings out of the competitors.

I bought the quest 3 a couple weeks after release (holding off until people said tracking was good enough) and everythign I saw looked good enough to me. And when I tried it I would definitely classify it as good enough. Honestly I was surprised that I could use adapters and get any tracking at all. Even golf+ works with the right orientation. Never would have expected that.

If you read those IB cricket posts in this forum the issue was SOLVED by designing adapters which face the controller in the correct way for the cameras to see. Most games can be solved by designing rotated adaptors with better controller face visibility. That's how eleven table tennis was solved.

The reddit thread linked above the user admits to using claw grip for beat saber. He claims that he plays worse on the q3 than the q2 but I can say without a doubt that controller shape DOES matter. Taichi likely said that the Quest 3 has good tracking because he comes from playing the rift cv1 which has smaller controller shape. The quest 2 handle is much thicker and I can say I play worse on the quest 2 than I ever did on the quest 1 at beat saber.

That TOTF comment linked also mentions battery disconnect issues which might be possible. Although it does seem like the quest 2 solved the battery disconnect issues over the quest 1? Not sure if they would have regressed in that area.

Honestly rather than quest pro controllers I just want a controller with a tracking ring again. I want these quest 3 haptics. They are much improved.






TheAntiSocializer
Honored Contributor
December 11, 2023

Hey guys, looks like this thread might be going a little off-topic, let's make sure these replies are about any Tracking Issues or relevant information for the engineers. While we appreciate all users informing us if they've had an issue with tracking or not, this shouldn't turn into a debate or argument of any kind. We're here to help all our users with any Quest issues they may have. Please be mindful of your wording and how it may affect others.

Sometimes it's okay to be a little Bing Chilling
Inspiring
December 11, 2023

TheAntiSocializer What updates are you able to provide regarding the problems being reported please?

TheAntiSocializer
Honored Contributor
December 11, 2023

At the moment I haven't really heard too much, but I'm still pushing for some information to provide so I'll reach out as soon as I have something.

Sometimes it's okay to be a little Bing Chilling
Participant
December 16, 2023

TheAntiSocializer Another test I did when I was gently knocking left contoller on right making sure black faces are always visible.

Knocking closer to black faces resulted in more glitches. Not sure if the behaviour I experienced is expected but it could be related to the original issue I have with the fast swings and sudden stop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=256BkU4aMlY

EDIT: just tested the gentle knockings on Q2 - same effect as on Q3: I can see glitches.

Participant
December 16, 2023

TheAntiSocializer And I also did another test with the left controller this time (to rull out hardware issue with the right controller) - I could see glitches too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHAuSptWOnU

Also, I noticed the left controller rattled inside when I was making fast movements. When I took the battery out, the rattling went away. When I put the battery back in, rattling came back. I do know of other player whose adapter rattles but taking out the battery does not stop the rattling.

Participant
December 17, 2023

Has there been any progress on this? 

I’ve tried all of the ‘fixes’, and I’ve read all of the gaslighting telling me to disbelieve my eyes, yet my reality remains unchanged. 

Seems silly to have relied so heavily on AI for tracking. Counting on AI to ‘predict’ where my hands are rather than TRACKING where my hands ACTUALLY are just seems asinine. Seems to me in practice the actual tracking volume is less than what is claimed, and the diagrams we’ve been shown are inflated by space that is ‘tracked’ by AI prediction.

 

 

Up and Coming
December 18, 2023

The whole AI thing was a comment by Boz months ago which seems flashy more than anything else. 

The controllers have sensors in them which detect the forces and know how the controller moves and the lights only correct positional drift. Not sure they are using AI more as they are just relying more on the sensors and less on the visibility of the LEDs. Maybe using AI they know more about how the controllers move from the IMU alone. If you notice how when you go behind your body and back into camera view the controller doesn't change locations but continues in a smooth path? It's because they know where the controller is without ever having to see the LEDs. In the same way the quest go from years ago didn't have controllers that just stood completely still. They had some kind of tracking there.

If you watch that video from xeiter where he taps the controller and it jumps around as if some magical large force is being applied. That always happened. On the quest 2 I feel like it was worse than what was seen in that video, so maybe meta is doing something different. Quest 3 LED placement looks about 60% as visible as the rings where anywhere the ring had poor visibility, the controllers have none. Up high the controller looks to have very poor visiblity which is why for a game like gorilla tag it would be optimal to design a controller mount that faces fowards. Any game that faces downward it would be optimal to have the controller facing upwards.

If you look at tracking volume that meta claims I believe it is the tracking volume that the cameras can see. As you can see above and in front there is no camera visibility. To the sides up high, the LEDs are not visible but maybe they use hand tracking there. There is 1 LED in the bottom of the controller so maybe that provides some information as well. Quest 3 cameras seem to also point lower and wider to help with body tracking, but people seemed to be having issues with the off hand being lower in sports games and the controller jumping around. Maybe that was with hand trackign enabled.

My last post was tagged as "Misinformation" but every adapter should always have the best visibility. When we first used the quest 1 the adapter we played with was the soulnight adapter which had the ring on the wrong side of the controller. AMVR copied this design. It was not realized that there were tracking issues until we then had the sanlaki for the quest 2 with much better tracking. Once we had a new style of adapter like wasyl/SS for the quest 2 it was realized that even the sanlaki had bad.

In the case of those IB cricket adapters the controller should be 90 degrees for better ring visibility similar to those 90 degree golf+ adapters. The ones that point straight down are wrong. The people that 

What we need are more people watching the videos that xeiter posted and replicating the same result (or not) and to see if there is anything special causing these results. I can't make the paddle/controller jump around like xeiter can but maybe my swinging speed is not fast enough to produce this result. We need more people to record and test the same thing.

 

 

Inspiring
December 17, 2023

Over 2 months and nothing from Meta.  It's very odd considering it's an issue severe enough to potentially lead to the product failing to impact the market.

 

Participant
December 18, 2023

I have recorded another video where I do similar testing of fast motion followed by a sudden stop while in the Meta home environment instead of being inside Eleven Table Tennis game like in all my previous videos.

Same result - glitches just like in Eleven Table Tennis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6L0M-pDLGs

Hope this helps the investigation.

Up and Coming
December 18, 2023

Unfortunately, many of us cannot make videos because we had to return the device within the return window. I'm not about to order another just to prove what Meta has already acknowledged as an issue. They should be doing their own homework... and should have done it before releasing a far inferior tracking product.

Up and Coming
December 18, 2023

Meta acknowledged there are issues because there ARE issues. There are a million different issues. Some of them are limitations of the LED visiblity which can be solved by the user and some of them are limitations which can't be solved.

Some of them are issues with the hand tracking software in conjunction with controller tracking.

One person on here had issues with hard difficulty beat saber songs. I would assume that is a serious hardware error or just simply missing notes because hard difficulty songs are way too slow to cause any issues. 

What meta needs to do is let us use quest 2 controllers. It's only a small minority of people commenting these things because the general concensus on reddit is that the tracking is good enough, even among high level beat saber players.

Even in the golf+ discord most users seem happy with the 90 degree adapters which begs the question, why were quest 2 adapters not 90 degrees from the start? Seems pretty stupid to point the controller straight down instead of 90 degrees.

Participant
December 18, 2023

It is not our job to make/purchase adapters to make a product function on par with the previous generation.

 

 

The ‘consensus’ on Reddit is only amongst people that insult and deride everyone claiming they are having tracking issues. If I were a gambling man I’d wager many of those are Meta employees or PR agents getting ahead of the issue to dictate discourse.

 

We don’t need to produce videos ad nauseam to further substantiate this to Meta, or you, they need to do their job. 

You might have been tagged for misinformation because of how you like to dance around the issue, disregard people’s arguments, and post a solid wall of non-sequiturs to muddy the waters of discussion. All of which are techniques taught in classes on social media management and influence.

 

Your tactics disgust me and I hate everything that you are.

 

 

Up and Coming
December 18, 2023

Please stop trying to make problems others have experienced seem so irrelevant, when you're not the one experiencing them.

There have been many people with issues with Beat Saber... including me. I've got over 1,000 hours playing Beat Saber between the HTC Vive, Valve Index, and Quest 2 before trying the Quest 3. I've been fairly well known in the VR community for decades. I play Online mode, mostly expert (49 years old, as I said, I've been around for decades and seen a lot) and finish the Camellia category songs just fine on my Quest 2. During the weeks I had my Quest 3, I failed all of the Camellia category songs every time. I've completed all of the Camellia category songs with S or S+ on a regular basis on three different sets of hardware before the Quest 3.

Saying, "Buy a Quest 3 and if you don't like it, buy Quest 2 controllers as well" isn't a legit solution, and isn't even a viable option right now.

Up and Coming
December 18, 2023

Yet there are people playing 10 star maps on the quest 3. Did you use claw grip and cover all the LEDs? There are other grips.

That's the equivalent of gripping the tracking ring on the quest 2 and covering the LEDs and whining about the tracking.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2007607009

Here is 50 minutes of prottvr playing on the quest 3 and not sure I see that controller jumping issue that xeiter posted. But I didn't watch all 50 minutes