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December 17, 2013

Oculus + unlimited detail (Euclideon)

I'm not a developer, just a gaming and VR enthusiast. I was wondering if anyone thought of or is working on using Euclideon's Unlimited Detail technology to make an absolutely EPIC VR experience yet? If you haven't heard of Euclideon, here is their official site, it is truly incredible, and it's potential could be more fully appreciated and realized with the Oculus.

http://www.euclideon.com/

Euclideon's unlimited detail technology does exactly that. It allows the use of unlimited point cloud data in place of polygons for rendering graphical software. Sounds impossible, but they claim it works due to a google-like search algorithm that is able to find and send to your systems ram, only one point of cloud data for every pixel of your monitor. In this way the processor requirements to render any scene no matter how graphically detailed, stays exactly the same, and manageable. Whats more, the requirements are so low, even a basic laptop can produce graphics 100,000 times more detailed than even the most advanced polygon-based game on the market today. It seems to me, that due to this fact, it should help the oculus meet it's demanding latency requirements far better than polygon-based graphics, AND it will look about 100,000 times cooler... but dont take my word for it, do your own research on this.

Euclideon has received a lot of flak and harassment from the tech community doubting their claims, but as you can see from their site, they have their act together, and make a very convincing case.

someone with the skills, MAKE IT HAPPEN please!!! Oculus + Euclideon = EPIC WIN and the future of simulation technology.

    86 replies

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    densohax
    Up and Coming
    April 23, 2014
    "cybereality" wrote:
    "cerebral" wrote:

    Brigade gets almost the same quality as it uses much of the same code. :D

    Looks amazing!


    Yes it does!! It puts euclideon to shame!
    geekmaster
    Up and Coming
    April 23, 2014
    "densohax" wrote:
    "cybereality" wrote:
    "cerebral" wrote:
    Brigade gets almost the same quality as it uses much of the same code. :D
    Looks amazing!
    Yes it does!! It puts euclideon to shame!

    Is that real-time video? If so, what kind of rendering hardware does it require? I will have to research that later, now that it has my attention...
    This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
    cerebral
    Participant
    April 23, 2014
    i think its not.

    But, from Brigadeblog:

    Hello,

    As you may know, we announced Brigade few days ago and will be launched on Amazon EC2 in the second half of the year.

    To celebrate our launch, we decided to showcase our current version of Brigade at NVIDIA GTC 2014.

    The video below is using our most recent build of Brigade, keep in mind that a lot of work is being done and the noise might dramatically be improved in the next months.

    We’ll keep you informed about our progress on this blog.

    Thank you!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpT6MkCeP7Y#t=17


    Much much more authentic than Euclideon.
    Since path tracing is anyway needed for acurate rendering of photorealistic worlds and it can render hundreds of millions to billions of polys i dont think why we need Euclideon at all.
    http://vrdisplay.blogspot.de/
    densohax
    Up and Coming
    April 23, 2014
    "geekmaster" wrote:

    Is that real-time video? If so, what kind of rendering hardware does it require? I will have to research that later, now that it has my attention...



    I don't think it's real time, it say's on the bottom of the page that one feature of it is networking rendering, which implies offline rendering I guess.:

    http://render.otoy.com/newsblog/?p=414

    Back to euclideon then ;P

    If euclideon was able to display dynamic animation and lighting, they would be much more credible in the eye of the gamer community.
    cybereality
    Inspiring
    April 25, 2014
    Not real-time? I'm no longer impressed.

    OK, it's still a little cool.
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    XICO2KX
    New Participant
    April 28, 2014
    "geekmaster" wrote:
    That's why I believe that BWT will work. A single lookup returns a sorted sparse coordinate/color list along an axis, and you can binary search a near clipping plane, then the next point is the color you want. The warp mask axis intersect pixel tells you which axis (or axes) to traverse.

    Using a BWT for 3D rendering is quite an interesting idea. :idea:
    I also have some experience with the BWT (but not as much as you, it seems) in text space, but I still can't see how you apply it in this area... :|
    For instance, what alphabet would you use? :roll:

    Considering for example only 1D and these 4 points: (using 2 bits for coordinate and 3 bits for RGB color)

    P1 = ( x=0 , color=white ) = ( 00 , 111 )
    P2 = ( x=1 , color=red   ) = ( 01 , 100 )
    P3 = ( x=2 , color=green ) = ( 10 , 010 )
    P4 = ( x=3 , color=blue  ) = ( 11 , 001 )

    what would the BWT be?
    Something like this (concatenating all the coordinate values like different strings)? :?: 

    BWT|Suffix
    00 | $1 01 $2 10 $3 11 $4    -> 111
    01 | $2 10 $3 11 $4          -> 100
    10 | $3 11 $4                -> 010
    11 | $4                      -> 001
    $4 | 00 $1 01 $2 10 $3 11 $4
    $1 | 01 $2 10 $3 11 $4
    $2 | 10 $3 11 $4
    $3 | 11 $4

    I still don't quite get it... :|
    Could you explain it better with a simple example like this one, please? ;)
    geekmaster
    Up and Coming
    April 28, 2014
    "XICO2KX" wrote:
    For instance, what alphabet would you use? :roll: ... Could you explain it better with a simple example like this one, please? ;)

    It could be TESTED with plain text number strings, but my goal is to use 32-bit (or perhaps up to 128-bit) "characters" (which would require significant changes to my existing BWT code base) to encode coordinates directly. As I published elsewhere, I would index coords of the redundant form XYZCXYZ so we can search on any axis with other axes returned in suffix substring.

    No morning coffee yet, so no quick example (I like to be thorough and interactively check my work at each step). My BWT code base will be explored in depth and made more VR friendly soon, however...

    As I mentioned before, I independently invented the concept of BWT (using different terminology not found with Google) before learning that it already existed using terminology I found after refactoring and renaming portions of my code. It seems there is almost always prior art, perhaps using different terminology, which makes the patent system even more of a joke. So yes, I know BWT and related concepts well and I can see non-obvious ways to apply them. The Euclideon stuff is claimed to use indexed lookups after all...
    This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
    ElectricMucus
    Up and Coming
    April 28, 2014
    A stupid question: How is BWT any dramatically different than storing voxel in an octree?

    Perhaps its faster, great. But what if I want to add/remove voxels in realtime? Wouldn't I have to redo the entire algorithm on all voxels every time?
    geekmaster
    Up and Coming
    April 28, 2014
    "ElectricMucus" wrote:
    A stupid question: How is BWT any dramatically different than storing voxel in an octree?

    Perhaps its faster, great. But what if I want to add/remove voxels in realtime?

    Not for realtime updates, relying on pre-baked pixel colors. And not good for dynamic lighting for that matter, so flare guns and other "shoot-em-up" eye candy are not an appropriate fit either.

    It all depends on what KIND of experience you want. Different engines for different purposes. This has its place in the box of tools, and the producer must decide which tools fit the project. Or in this case, which project fits this tool (or use a different tool).

    I am only really interested in this in the first place because John Carmack said it was impossible, or something similar to that. I love doing what others call impossible (when my reliable intuition disagrees), just for fun...
    This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
    densohax
    Up and Coming
    May 5, 2014
    Impossible? What's that word!? .. That's the word ignorant uses when something is out of their scope.

    However, I don't remember John Carmack saying it's impossible. Just not within our reach for gaming. Which probably mean, dynamic rendering will not be practical.

    I still don't understand how BWT will be used in this context. Let's see, you have the view pyramid, the position and camera angles. You have to know what every pixel see in 3d. You can't just send a 3d coordinate, you are always missing one coordinate.. How do you get to know what point is the nearest when a ray might go at an angle (read: how do you get your index to get "parallaxed") ?

    I would see however, a way to use this as a relative movement in 3d. If you can encode the relative distance between each point in every direction, then yeah it could work, but that takes a lot of space, hopefully, it can be compressed at the same time.
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