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Up and Coming
January 13, 2014

Should Oculus bundle motion controllers with every Rift?

Hi there!

I've mentioned this a couple times back around September, but now that it's official that Oculus VR is focusing on a seated experience and that external optical tracking looks likely for CV1 i think it's become relevant again..

Also posted a comment on Reddit the other day, just thought i would create a new thread here to see if we can get a bit more feedback.
http://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/1uw0nl/the_next_big_hurdle_for_vr_getting_your_hands_in

Here's a slightly edited version of my reply to the OP:
"PatimPatam" wrote:

Basically, i believe that the company in the best position to put our hands inside the game is actually Oculus VR itself.

I would love to have an affordable haptic feedback glove, but for the 1st generation of consumer VR i don't think we really need one; a motion controller similar to the PS-Move but where each finger rests in a separate analog button (with optional force feedback) should be enough to simulate our hands. For instance I can imagine it having the shape of a prism or a dumbbell, with several LEDs on both ends.

Having already an external camera for positional tracking this type of controller should be very cheap to produce for Oculus (basically just plastic, a few LEDs, a bluetooth transmitter, and one of the awesome IMUs they already developed to use inside the headset).

I think Oculus could perfectly bundle 2 of these controllers with every Rift sold, without adding more than $40 or $50 to the final price.

I know it may not sound like super-exciting high-tech at first, but the fact that EVERY Rift user would have the same VR input would make a MASSIVE difference. Developers could create VR games and applications with very intuitive interfaces from day 1 knowing that there is a standard input shared by all users.


And here's a very rough sketch i made to have an idea of what i mean. On top of that there should probably be a strap that goes around the back of your hand, so the controller stays in place even with the palm open.



Also optionally there could be a thumbstick instead of the thumb button, but i don't really think it's necessary since i believe avatar movement/rotation could be archived in more intuitive ways, like pressing a button and using positional tracking (lean forward to move forward for instance). Thumbsticks for movement have become quite standard between gamers but i don't think they are that intuitive for the average person.

More on that here:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=18694


Obviously the main technical difficulty with this solution would be how to differentiate controller LEDs from HMD LEDs. The more trivial approach would probably be using a visible spectrum camera instead of infrared and have different colors for each controller but that has it's own set of disadvantages.. anyway i think with the team of computer vision experts at Oculus this should be certainly doable.

I'm also quite certain that a system like this (if used at an optimal distance from the camera) could be much more accurate than alternatives like magnetic tracking (mainly due to the magnetic distortion problem).

At the same time systems like the STEM or PrioVR could still be useful for scenarios where the user wants to move around with more freedom within a confined space, or inside omni threadmills.


I've seen quite a few people complaining about the external camera solution.. Am i the only one INSANELY excited about it?? I believe this could potentially bring us one step closer to the Oasis console.

I honestly think this should be a no-brainer for Oculus, and actually i'm betting they already have some hand-controller internal prototypes; then again maybe i'm wrong :-)

Thoughts?


EDIT:

Like i mentioned later in this thread, if occlusion is too troublesome to sort out with only the existing front camera, a 2nd inside-out camera with a wide FOV could be used on the headset to help track the controllers. If the HMD is blocked by the controllers, the relative position between the external camera and the HMD could be calculated integrating the relative position between camera and controllers and the relative position between controllers and HMD.

Maybe this inside-out camera could be used at the same time for pass-through functionality similar to Gear VR. Obviously this would add both weight and cost to the HMD, but i don't see it as a show-stopper.

    132 replies

    Up and Coming
    February 11, 2014
    I'm a huge fan of the technology behind the Stem system, I currently have two Hydra's and even backed for a 5 stem system as well but I'm not happy with what Sixense has done here recently. Personally I think Sixense is being very unreasonable at the moment. For those who don't know or have forgotten, prior to the launch of the Oculus Rift the Razor Hydra had been selling miserably and was even considered a failed product at the time. The MotionCreator software hadn't even been updated since 2011. Sixense piggybacked their success simply because Oculus didn't announce a controller solution to go along with the dev kit. Now they expect a quarter million for software (not to mention hardware) that hasn't even been released yet. The funding goal is too high, their initial price of $169 is too steep. Not only that but they have made it even more difficult for dev's to design around the controller by halting Hydra sales at Razor and selling them exclusively only on their website now at a huge mark up (over 300USD). How are dev's supposed to integrate this tech into new and existing software when they are expected to pay over $300 for a now discontinued wired Hydra? Let's put this in proper perspective, they expect people to pay up to $500 (plus shipping/extras) for an unproven 5 stem controller that doesn't exist yet when an actual consumer Oculus HMD is only going to be around $300. That's essentially twice the price, for a controller? Not mention the Hydra was temperamental, frustrating to use and unreliable. Also, not to mention this $500 amount is the pre-order price. What's the actual MSRP going to be $700+?

    Truth is, I'm certain Oculus is already working on their own control solution at the moment. Sixense needs to stop and realize these kickstarter products don't even exist yet. How obvious can you be to capitalize on the very backers who are trying to bring your product to market. Crowdfunding shouldn't be used as an outlet to maximize profit. Future profits are exactly where crowd-funding is supposed to come into play to begin with. To sum it all up into one word, greed. Fastest way to ruin the VR marketplace is have companies come in and monopolize a section of the market by asking outrageous prices.

    They are a resurgent company doomed to fail, feeding off another companies raging success to stay afloat. I now regret not waiting to see what Oculus may announce later on this year regarding a control solution. I would now take an Oculus control system even if it was more expensive and inferior to the actual Sixense product when you consider the money would go back to Oculus for future growth and not some company feeding off it's fumes of success.

    Oculus, it's time to make a controller announcement ASAP.
    Up and Coming
    February 12, 2014
    I hate to agree about Sixense, but a lot of these companies that are using Kickstarter seem to be trying to pull a "snatch and grab." VR is new territory and risky for companies to invest in. A majority of these companies seems to have figured out that the safest bet is simply cash in on the "hype" of the incoming VR by throwing something together quickly and getting money from early adopters and enthusiasts instead of taking the risk to see if their product is actually a viable VR product.

    I can't say that it's a bad strategy on the companies' parts. Even if VR flops or their product flops, at least they've broken even. I think it's pretty foolish, though, for people to be supporting a majority of these Kickstarters. IF you have the money to blow and just want to support companies who are trying, then have it (that's what Kickstarter is for). But too many of these companies are trying to use Kickstarter as a way of selling an untested product rather than garnering support for an undeveloped idea.

    The fact that Sixense has had TWO Kickstarters leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. "Let's have an over-priced Kickstarter for the hardware and then force those backers to pay into another REALLY over-priced Kickstarter for the software". Oculus is the only real company I trust at this point, simply because I have their prototype and am familiar with the origins of the company. Everyone else just seems to be trying to capture the same lightning in a bottle that's already in someone else's bottle.
    The Furious Angels - an Oculus Rift Online Gaming Community!
    Participant
    February 19, 2014
    Hi, I am developing VR simulators with oculus rift and of all the solutions I have tried, (leap motion included), the only one that did the trick was sixenses razer hydra. I can't wait for them to start selling their wireless stem solution. THAT is going to make true VR with Oculus.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1afa7z6Wkdo
    Up and Coming
    February 19, 2014
    "eschoinas" wrote:
    Hi, I am developing VR simulators with oculus rift and of all the solutions I have tried, (leap motion included), the only one that did the trick was sixenses razer hydra. I can't wait for them to start selling their wireless stem solution. THAT is going to make true VR with Oculus.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1afa7z6Wkdo

    I agree that this is the best option that we have right now, and the STEM system is the one i will probably support in the near future.

    I just wish we had an optical+IMU alternative for the PC, which IMO could be both cheaper and more accurate than magnetic tracking.
    Up and Coming
    February 20, 2014
    New interview:
    http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/02/19/jacking-into-the-matrix-eve-and-oculus-utopian-dreams/

    "Brendan Iribe" wrote:
    Right now the VR controller of choice is a traditional game controller, but we’re still R&D-ing internally what VR control is going to be. I think it’s gonna take a while. We don’t want to release anything until we get it right.

    Usually when people put on the VR headset, the first thing they do is go, ‘This is amazing,’ but then the second thing is they lift their hand and go, ‘But wait, when am I gonna see my hands move?’

    The long-term goal is to bring your hands into the experience. We don’t want to do that in some wonky way. We’re not gonna bring them in until it literally, absolutely feels like it’s your own hand. How long will that science part of it take? We don’t know yet.

    Again same argument that Palmer mentioned in previous interviews..

    I really don't understand this logic; to me it's like saying "there's no point releasing the Rift until we have 8K screens and perfect eye-tracking".

    I believe even a basic 1-hand-only PS Move type controller would be better than the options that we have right now (keyboard+mouse / gamepad / $300+ magnetic tracking).


    Oh well, I guess i better start saving for that STEM system..
    Inspiring
    February 20, 2014
    Because you want to avoid the uncanny valley.

    Case in point: The Wiimote and well, every single motion control device out there. It makes controls closer to reality but it's not quite there so although it can work well enough for some experiences, most of the time it's simply unreliable and you'd rather just press a button that works every time.

    Look what happened on the console side. Motion controls have pretty much been abandoned now.

    I agree that they have to make it right and not go to market prematurely like others have done.
    Up and Coming
    February 20, 2014
    Well look at The Gallery Exploration School demo for instance, i think it is 'almost' good enough as it is, and that's an early beta with a cheap and old tech like the Razor Hydra. Yes there's a little uncanny valley there, you don't really believe that the hands in the game are actually your hands, but it still helps to boost immersion and interaction possibilities tenfold.

    I'm also quite sure that with their optical tracking Oculus could do much better than the Hydra (at the very least your hands would always be in the correct position in relation to your head, without the need to constantly re-calibrate). The requirements for good hand-tracking (with no fingers) are lower than for head-tracking, so if the tech in the Crystal Cove is good enough for a HMD it should be good enough for a decent motion controller.

    The question is, do we want more apps like The Gallery or MakeVR for this 1st gen? Or do we have to wait a few years until we get affordable and perfect finger tracking, haptic feedback, etc?
    Inspiring
    February 20, 2014
    Well, to be completely honest, I'm with 100% you. But we're enthusiasts and we're willing to look past the little flaws.

    What I don't want is Kinect like stigma. Cool tech... hardcore gamers despise it.
    Up and Coming
    March 9, 2014
    I just managed to get my VR Input question asked on the SXSW panel. It definitely sounds like Oculus is hard at work on VR Input as we speak. They mentioned it was the next big hurdle after positional tracking and low persistence, so I think it's actually their top priority at the moment!
    The Furious Angels - an Oculus Rift Online Gaming Community!
    Up and Coming
    March 9, 2014
    "PatimPatam" wrote:

    The question is, do we want more apps like The Gallery or MakeVR for this 1st gen? Or do we have to wait a few years until we get affordable and perfect finger tracking, haptic feedback, etc?


    I ll take a while for people to accept that, even as cool as VR is, you have to wear a plastic brick in yor head to enjoy it. adding gloves, wires, bodysensors etc for haptics wont help right now imo, even if those are the ultimate VR imputs...

    If tacticap haptics are as cool as they sound to be, maybe thats all we need for a little hapric induced presence , at least till VR goes really mainstream.
    Gloves +tactical haptics " rumble" controller could be a great duo, you ll have all your fingers 1:1 in the game, tracking and something to grab on that gives you feedback. It does sounds expensive too...
    Backer "Have faith." -Palmer Luckey