Skip to main content
Techy111
Honored Contributor
June 10, 2019
Question

The Index thread (please keep to subject)

As per the title, please respect the users who post here and keep it on topic, any nonsense and......grrr

    2974 replies

    Show previous replies
    Anonymous
    December 28, 2020
    Full Index Kit from Steam shows 2-4 weeks in the U.S.
    TomCgcmfc
    Honored Contributor
    December 28, 2020

    dburne said:

    Full Index Kit from Steam shows 2-4 weeks in the U.S.


    Ya, those Damm Yankees get everything first, lol!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQVoU9lPjoU

    9800x3d, rtx5090, X870E MB w/wifi7, 64Gb 6000 ram, 2x2TB SSD, 1000W PSU, Win 11pro, QPro, Q3, w/Link and Air Link, Vive Pro1 with 2x2.0 base stations, Etsy lens mod and Index Controllers
    RuneSR2
    RuneSR2
    Honored Contributor
    December 31, 2020
    Just going through some Subreddits last night, I noticed this one - seems like a fair review of the pros and cons - Index vs. G2 - as no hmd is perfect:

    G2 vs Index - My Experience

    So I had been hyped for the G2 since it was announced, and I received mine early December. After about 2-3 days of use I decided to return it, and my experience had pushed me towards the Index.

    Obviously this isn't a complete praising of the G2, but I personally would have appreciated reading these sorts of experiences if I were deciding. I'll keep it brief.


    The G2 definitely has it's pro's. The resolution is just great and the audio is great, but I feel like those are really the primary things going for it. Every other aspect varies from "yeah it's fine" to "oof". We all know what those are, the FOV (even with the modded face pad), the tracking and WMR.


    Now I had been using the Samsung O+ as my primary headset and it was honestly fine, though I think I had expected too much from the upgrade to the G2. Unfortunately my experience with the G2 pushed me over to the Index.


    The Index's tracking is just, unexplainably better. Even when the G2 tracking was working "fine", it's just not comparable. The FOV on the Index is also absolutely fantastic. Add the option for 144hz refresh rate, and the Index sweet spot is much better than the G2 in my opinion.


    The controllers - I knew the knuckles were good, but they really do improve just, everything. It's just so weirdly satisfying and immersive when your movements are perfectly translated into VR. No snapping controllers when they come into the tracking volume etc. Just weird things like I can pick something up, flick it behind my back and over my head and catch it in front of me - it just makes it feel so much better having that level of control.


    However - the Index is not without it's flaws. The headset feels heavier and chunky. The whole thing is a pain in the ass to setup and now I have base stations drilled into my walls. The base stations make an annoying whining sound while they're running, like a tiny high rpm electric motor (which is what it is I guess). The god rays, dear lord the god rays. Also it's significantly more expensive.


    Even with those flaws though, overall the Index just gave me VR presence I haven't felt before. To the point where when I come out of VR, I have a weird sort of "am I still in VR" feeling going on.


    I'm not necessarily saying one is better than the other for every person, because it's not. But I feel at this point in time, the Index is still the jack-of-all-trades headset for the definitive VR experience.


    If we had a headset that was a combination of the G2 weight/form factor and resolution with the Index's FOV and tracking quality, we'd really be onto something.


    https://www.reddit.com/r/HPReverb/comments/knbuyo/g2_vs_index_my_experience/


    I also noticed that there're now several posts about the columns, which are horizontal on G2 but vertical using Index - but that's to be expected due to lcd, still seems like some notice them while others do not:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/HPReverb/comments/jzaaqx/g2_vertical_banding_problem_column_correction/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/HPReverb/comments/ka662r/do_you_have_horisontal_lines_on_your_g2_screen/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/HPReverb/comments/kn209k/who_has_horizontal_black_lines_mura/

    Also not sure if anyone noticed but I do sometimes see these weird "bands" I guess you can call them when looking at a sky or flat color. they do not move and feel almost baked into the screens. Definitely not "moire" but not sure how to describe it. They are large and not at all like the pixel inversion or vertical SDE issue that is easily fixed with column correction on the index.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/HPReverb/comments/kf7bs4/first_impressions_i_overhyped_it/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/HPReverb/comments/jubooh/horizontal_darkened_lines_in_both_eyes_on_certain/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/HPReverb/comments/kkkygq/any_word_on_the_horizontal_lines_are_these_normal/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/HPReverb/comments/kfnjfn/anyone_having_very_faint_horizontal_lines_in_the/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/HPReverb/comments/jumjxl/new_reverb_g2_with_horizontal_lines_stuck_on/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/HPReverb/comments/kjmplr/white_horizontal_scan_lines_then_black_screen_in/

    So going to G2 to avoid the columns may be hit or miss... Probably harder to see than Index with lenses all dialed in though - also due to higher G2 res. 
    Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"
    Luciferous
    Inspiring
    December 31, 2020
    Having had the Index for a little bit, I am very happy with it overall. FOV, tracking, Quality etc. The thing I will says is not brilliant is the lenses (glare and clarity). I don't have the G2 but have seen some reliable reviews saying the clarity is very good compared to the Index and does not suffer from these issues. (Norm from tested for example)

    I know your glasses seem to remove that glare issue Runes but I cant wear glasses in VR it's just so distracting and unatural.

    Resolution I am fine with especially with my lowish spec rig. 

    I don't think I would choose a G2 having the option again as the G2 has the FOV / tracking issues and the lenses are not that great a problem that bothers me. Still I think there is room for improvement and an upgrade to clarity for the Index would probably make it my ideal headset.

    Oh to add the blacks in a non OLED do suck if the games not prepared for it. That also needs to change.

    OmegaM4N
    Honored Contributor
    December 31, 2020
    ^^^The black levels on LCD HMDs annoy me because there is already a option that works perfectly as proven on the Quest 2 via Virtual desktop app,  that allows the end user to alter the brightness, gamma and contrast levels, now those options won't turn a LCD into a OLed, but they go a long way to removing that grey haze and actually giving the lcd black levels and colour some much needed better definition and vibrancy from the default grey washed out mess, so i have no idea why it takes a third party app like Virtual desktop to offer these features while Steam, WMR and FB still don't or won't.  :/
    CV1/Vive-knuckles)/Dell Vr Visor/Go/Quest II/ PSVR/PSVR 2.
    TomCgcmfc
    Honored Contributor
    December 31, 2020

    OmegaM4N said:

    ^^^The black levels on LCD HMDs annoy me because there is already a option that works perfectly as proven on the Quest 2 via Virtual desktop app,  that allows the end user to alter the brightness, gamma and contrast levels, now those options won't turn a LCD into a OLed, but they go a long way to removing that grey haze and actually giving the lcd black levels and colour some much needed better definition and vibrancy from the default grey washed out mess, so i have no idea why it takes a third party app like Virtual desktop to offer these features while Steam, WMR and FB still don't or won't.  :/


    I think that the current Q2 lcd screens are about the best in the business now and provide the best lcd blacks.  Just a pity that they are single-screen, with limited IPD adjustment, and relatively low FOV.  Still, a pretty impressive package for $299 imho.

    While VD offers gamma (most important) and brightness controls it still cannot compete with oled.  Some games like Westworld also offer in-game gamma adjustment and this can help a bit with lcd screens.  The problem is that when you make these adjustments to basically force the lcd's to display blacks you often get a lot of unwanted artifacts, like smearing in dark environments.  For this reason, I've found it best to just accept the near-blacks produced from lcd's.  After a while you don't really notice the difference, as long as you don't switch back and forth to oled's too often, lol!
    9800x3d, rtx5090, X870E MB w/wifi7, 64Gb 6000 ram, 2x2TB SSD, 1000W PSU, Win 11pro, QPro, Q3, w/Link and Air Link, Vive Pro1 with 2x2.0 base stations, Etsy lens mod and Index Controllers
    RuneSR2
    RuneSR2
    Honored Contributor
    January 1, 2021

    TomCgcmfc said:


    OmegaM4N said:

    ^^^The black levels on LCD HMDs annoy me because there is already a option that works perfectly as proven on the Quest 2 via Virtual desktop app,  that allows the end user to alter the brightness, gamma and contrast levels, now those options won't turn a LCD into a OLed, but they go a long way to removing that grey haze and actually giving the lcd black levels and colour some much needed better definition and vibrancy from the default grey washed out mess, so i have no idea why it takes a third party app like Virtual desktop to offer these features while Steam, WMR and FB still don't or won't.  :/


    I think that the current Q2 lcd screens are about the best in the business now and provide the best lcd blacks.  Just a pity that they are single-screen, with limited IPD adjustment, and relatively low FOV.  Still, a pretty impressive package for $299 imho.

    While VD offers gamma (most important) and brightness controls it still cannot compete with oled.  Some games like Westworld also offer in-game gamma adjustment and this can help a bit with lcd screens.  The problem is that when you make these adjustments to basically force the lcd's to display blacks you often get a lot of unwanted artifacts, like smearing in dark environments.  For this reason, I've found it best to just accept the near-blacks produced from lcd's.  After a while you don't really notice the difference, as long as you don't switch back and forth to oled's too often, lol!



    In Westworld there was a location where I could not see any objects due to the darkness/greyness. The more dark a location gets with lcd, the greyer it becomes because you start using the rods in the retina, and they are masters at registering all the annoying lcd backlight, lol. 
    Now trying the same location with CV1, suddenly - like magic - I could see many different objects - like getting true night vision. It's of course because oled even with spud can provide much deeper blacks than lcd, allowing objects with extremely low light still to be observed. Lcd cuts off everything darker than the deepest blacks/greys they can provide, and in games like Saints & Sinners, lcd owners constantly need a flashlight in all the extremely dark places - while using oled you usually do not need a flashlight. It's kinda a massive difference having proper night vision or not in very dark games. Also it gives me a free hand in Saints & Sinners, because I don't need to constantly hold the flashlight. That affects gameplay a lot.
    Even turning down brighness using lcd may create an illusion of better blacks, but it will not help trying to see objects in dark places, as the turned down brightness affects all things equally. In Alyx, Valve therefore needed to set up tons of lamps in the normally dark tunnels to create the illusion of nice blacks, because you need light to create proper blacks using lcd, and many devs seem unaware of this. 2c. 
    Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"
    TomCgcmfc
    Honored Contributor
    January 1, 2021
    All good points Rune.  Alyx is probably the best example of a game that has been optimised for lcd's.  Actually looked better with a Rift S than a Rift cv1, but still slightly better with my Vive Pro imho.
    9800x3d, rtx5090, X870E MB w/wifi7, 64Gb 6000 ram, 2x2TB SSD, 1000W PSU, Win 11pro, QPro, Q3, w/Link and Air Link, Vive Pro1 with 2x2.0 base stations, Etsy lens mod and Index Controllers
    RuneSR2
    RuneSR2
    Honored Contributor
    January 9, 2021
    Finally got DiRT Rally 2.0 downloaded - it is 107GB, so bigger than Asgard's Wrath for the download. Got the Steam version for 5 bucks at the Steam Christmas Sale - figured 20GB per $ was a nice price :D - Although it does take up a lot of space on my SSD  :#  

    I've read a lot about bad performance - and the Steam version does not support native Oculus drivers, so could only use Index. To my amazement this game had really great performance - got solid 90 fps when just starting the game with default settings. 

    Ended up with Index res 150% with 2xMSAA and several settings set to Ultra or high. Medium settings should look great for all with a lcd hmd and provide great performance. Did use 16xANI for the road/track. So this might be close to my favorite VR racing game. Cars 3 is much more gpu demanding than DiRT 2, at least for the Steam version.

    Kinda sad the Steam version does not support native Oculus drivers - as the trailer shows, this game was made for Rift CV1 (and of course it was, arriving August 2019 devs had close to no time testing with lcd hmds):

    https://youtu.be/09fqIdC6bxg
    Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"
    RuneSR2
    RuneSR2
    Honored Contributor
    January 10, 2021
    One dude in Index Subreddit just wrote this - which I did find interesting:

    Out of body experience. Strange side effects?!


    I downloaded all the games everyone suggested. I am having a blast and I believe this is every bit the future I wanted it to be. The feeling I get playing Alex is indescribable. I am in my 30's and feel like a kid again.

    Ive had it a week and it has been a long long week.


    I just went back to work two days ago... I am having strange problems that I cannot fully describle. My arms and hands dont feel like my own and I am having trouble typing on my phone and walking. WHen I look at my phone the words seem different like my depth perception is off. It almost looks 3d. My hands dont always type the same.


    My arms do not feel like my hands and arms so much so that I almost dropped a tray on a customer. This is not a joke post.... I even when i wake up get lag stutters if I turn my head too fast. I have seen similar posts to this all over the internet. But I wanted to mention it cause its worse than I expected and very very alarming. I dont want to stop vr but I will have to if these things dont go away. I walked into two walls and 3 chairs last night. I guess I assumed my body wouldnt hit physically. Also stairs make me feel carsick in real life. But Not in vr anymore...


    Im feeling these things on a very severe level. To the point I couldnt fuction properly. I had to go into the bathroom and do left hand and right hand execersizes to get used to my hands and its been helping. But I also believe fully sometimes I can teleport shit into my hands like im still in vr. So much so that I didnt feel afraid when I walked too close to trafic either. Like my fear mechanism has also been lowered.


    I hear this fades away and some poeple miss it... What I can assume is vr works 95% as indended if I am feeling these things. The truth is... I wanted to talk about it cause it actually scared me two days ago. Like I was afraid I would be stuck like this. Also reading my monitor is difficult too I have to concentrate now instead of just instant to get focused.


    Maybe I should not have spent so many hours my first week jacked in... I couldnt help it. I had so so much fun... its like an addiction I want to play more. I havent gamed like this in years... but I feel like a gamer again. I feel like its my passion again. But I never expected side effects or ever had anything like this.


    Have you guys felt this shit?


    I never felt anything close to what is described here, but we all have different mental and psychological capacities, maybe some are more prone to such problems than others. A similar problem has been published in this paper:

    Virtual reality induces dissociation and lowers sense of presence in objective reality

    Affiliations expand

    Abstract

    This study utilizes an innovative experimental paradigm to investigate the effects of virtual reality (VR) on dissociative experience and the sense of presence. A nonclinical sample of 30 people were administered measures of dissociation, sense of presence, and immersion before and after an immersion in a virtual environment. Results indicate an increase in dissociative experience (depersonalization and derealization), including a lessened sense of presence in objective reality as the result of exposure to VR. Higher preexisting levels of dissociation and a tendency to become more easily absorbed or immersed were associated with higher increases in dissociative symptoms resulting from VR immersion. Results are discussed in terms of imaginative processes underlying the dissociative experience and potential implications to the treatment of anxiety disorders with VR.


    But that paper is from 2010 - and I'd say we didn't get proper VR before CV1 + Touch. I have a hard time finding any relevance is such old observations. 

    After getting into VR in 2017, I did have some months feeling slightly dizzy with some kind of very faint chronic nausea, but only in the real world and it went away inside VR - and it totally went away after like 3 months. Also I might have gotten way more exposure than the average user. I did complete Lone Echo, Ethan Carter and spent much time in games that many couldn't like 

    https://youtu.be/CGecTrjiRh0

    Due to much better fov and hand presence (finger tracking) Index feels much more natural to use, it's my experience that nausea may be more limited, especially for those using 120+ hz, but I haven't seen any scientific study confirming this. Maybe I should get some of my bachelor students to make such an investigation, lol. 
    Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"
    Show more replies
    Terms & ConditionsAccessibility statement