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The Index thread (please keep to subject)

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As per the title, please respect the users who post here and keep it on topic, any nonsense and......grrr

Honored Contributor

Totally awesome - Gabe - the man himself - just posted on Index Subreddit that he'll provide help if anyone has problems with cables:

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/mpnolr/a_suggestion_to_have_valve_sell_replacement_cables/guguot8/

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

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OmegaM4N

Honored Contributor

Ohhhhhh, now that is interesting, i am going to predict a Index hardware revision possibly ready to go as maybe Valve have learned a lesson on how they got caught out with some of the sourced parts that were needed for the Index when the pandemic hit, so maybe a revision of the HMD will have removed that issue and they are about to ramp up production again.

CV1/Vive-knuckles)/Dell Vr Visor/Go/Quest II/ PSVR/PSVR 2.

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

I wouldn't be surprised if Valve already made such changes. I actually have the Index "Wuhan" edition, lol - but it's true, Valve did indeed use certain chips made by factories in Wuhan. Might have been a struggle replacing or getting enough parts starting in early 2020 - Gabe said that Apple and Microsoft were quick to secure remaining Wuhan chips leaving Valve out in the cold.

Valve has also made modifications to the Index controllers, but I have seen no reliable info on what Valve really has done to the Index since launch. Some discuss 2019, 2020 and 2021 hmd revisions, but no one seems able to provide convincing info about changes - I guess very few have several Index hmds and dare take them apart, lol.

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

Zenbane

Honored Contributor

"Totally awesome - Gabe - the man himself - just posted on Index Subreddit that he'll provide help if anyone has problems with cables"

I'm sure that's a warm welcome to everyone we can see who is still having so many hardware issues ongoing since the Index's release. Reminds me a bit of the early days for Rift CV1, when it had audio issues. Palmer offered to personally send a fix to any users.

Dealing with cables on the Index CV1 is very much a 2016 kinda problem. I imagine that at some point Gabe will see the benefit of dropping the pointless tethered experience and take advantage of the superior inside-out tracking. Granted, to be successful with inside-out tracking Valve would need to create their own custom machine learning tracking software similar to what Oculus did. This is going to be a challenge for competitors in the inside-out tracking space. But hey, it's better than being the President of a company and having to get personally involved cable management lol

When Palmer did it, he was already retired. Good on Gabe though. It's important to get personally involved with your product when it's been faulty for 2 years straight.

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Anonymous

Index is doing quite well in the VR flight and racing sim genres.

I rarely see any issues posted from Index users.

I am still tempted to grab one, but holding off in case they might be working on an update to it.

If they offered an update with inside/out tracking controllers I would be all over it.

Zenbane

Honored Contributor

Index is doing as well as just about any other product, from the looks of it. Index issues are posted quite regularly.

Just 4 days ago, this user posted their issue. Nobody has been able to assist yet tho.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1059530/discussions/0/5047948127383885785/

Just got my Index, updated everything, and now I'm trying to use it. I can't really get it to do anything. When I start SteamVR, the headset shows a light grey screen, the shows "Home", then fades to black. When I start the tutorial, it shows "Tutorial Next up", then fades to black. If I start a VR game, it says "Up next" then fades to black. If I have VR View open, it shows things, and moving the headset around changes the view, but I get nothing on the headset.

What's going on?

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OmegaM4N

Honored Contributor

^^^You are just posting vidoes of the Index now to rub it in that i don't have one yet, admit it. lol

CV1/Vive-knuckles)/Dell Vr Visor/Go/Quest II/ PSVR/PSVR 2.

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

Who would do such a horrible thing 😂

Btw, Index is really good for listening to music. Last night I just sat down and listened to the Portal 2 soundtrack - really sounded amazing.

Now, some music sounds better using CV1 due to the bass, but some music sounds much better with the Index. Really depends on the tunes - the Index speakers are extremely precise/crisp for certain sounds.

With the Index and CV1 I really feel like...

Spoiler

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

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OmegaM4N

Honored Contributor

Yeah the CV1 audio was fantastic, you just can't beat over the ear headphones that are part of the HMD just for slipping the whole HMD on and off in one go, it's the one thing i hated about the Dell VR Visor which had a very nice 1440x1440 per eye res for such a early HMD, but having to get seperate earphone was a pain, Vive was the same until they brought out the Deluxe strap, PSVR comes with those in ear ones and they do the job, so yeah we started out this VR journey with some really high quality VR products and peripherals, hence why i personlly find it hard losing stuff like Oled, solid tracking, dedicated display port and the all in one sound and vision VR HMD, and one that have a audio option that don't annoy people next to you, so i hope future HMDs that are in the works right now offer say a pro version for those willing to pay more for a better quality product with better features.

CV1/Vive-knuckles)/Dell Vr Visor/Go/Quest II/ PSVR/PSVR 2.

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

Nice that we all agree on keeping the great Index thread alive - exposure is always great, so new boardies can learn about the Index.

Btw, this game is starting to look really good - especially with the dynamic lights and shadows - note this is the PCVR version - trailer arrived a few hours ago - might look really great in 120+ fps with big fov, since this is a fast paced fps (it looks like PSVR set the poly levels for the PCVR version, it doesn't look Questified to me):

Looks like the RTX 3090 could come in handy for the 144 fps Index res 200% in this game, lol. - And perfect tracking is your friend when panic and 50+ zombies arrives! 😉

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

Zenbane

Honored Contributor

RuneSR2 wrote:
Nice that we all agree on keeping the great Index thread alive - exposure is always great, so new boardies can learn about the Index.

Btw, this game is starting to look really good - especially with the dynamic lights and shadows - note this is the PCVR version - trailer arrived a few hours ago - might look really great in 120+ fps with big fov, since this is a fast paced fps (it looks like PSVR set the poly levels for the PCVR version, it doesn't look Questified to me)

Yeah I think it's good that VR enthusiasts are able to see both sides of the equation.

Index is a good gaming tool made by a video game company for gamers; while Quest is a great VR kit made by a VR company for VR enthusiasts.

As for that game, After the Fall, dynamic lights and shadows certainly won't do much to cover up the fact that it's just another zombie shooter. So many of those in the VR market; a very saturated and overdone sub-genre.

Some gamers may find it appealing, but I think VR Enthusiasts will find it redundant and unoriginal.

Not to mention that "dynamic lights and shadows" aren't an actual indicator for what makes a "good game." That's like looking to buy a new car and saying... "I can tell this car will function well because it has windshield wipers and headlights." lol

Dynamic Lighting and Shadows is immensely easy to achieve in software. It's most literally the bare bone basics of building any assets for any video game. Every tutorial for the Unreal Engine and Unity Engine outlines how to achieve these incredibly basic features.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIzpaLq2vQ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5l8vP90EvU

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

Regarding Valve providing new cables for Index owners - this actually happens free of charge for Index owners out of warranty - that's hard to top and amazing service:

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/mvplzf/my_index_is_working_well/

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

Zenbane

Honored Contributor

There are 2 things appealing about After the Fall, none of which are related to graphics:

Multiplayer
It comes from the Arizona Sunshine developers

I could care less about graphic features that are a mere checkbox item on a development studio (e.g. lighting and shadows), but anything that allows Social VR to take place has the potential to be great fun. That's what makes RecRoom so great: You can play with family and friends.

If After The Fall manages to avoid being another zombie shooter flop, then it would be fun to try to gather some of this community's members for multiplayer action. SocialVR is much more immersive than single player video game experiences (e.g. Alyx).

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

I just love making pool bombs in the Index Subreddit, lol - thank you, Tom, for the support 🙂

https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/mw3q4p/olivia_is_back_this_summer_if_she_can_be_revived/

Really looking forward to getting back in space - and maybe it's appropriate with some elevator music to ease the wait 😉

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

Zenbane

Honored Contributor

RuneSR2 wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/mw3q4p/olivia_is_back_this_summer_if_she_can_be_revived/

I notice that you mention the 4 year development time often. Comparing 4 years of Alyx to 4 years of Lone Echo. It's odd to stress on something so standard. It's been known for at least the last 20 years that developing a AAA game averages 3-5 years. It's a quite commonly understood frame of reference.

T

TomCgcmfc

Honored Contributor

For goodness sake guys, please lets just get back to more Index related content and give the recent argumentative banter a rest. I don't think we need to Master-Debate every little comment, lol! Fresh start now please, thanks guys and cheers.

Back to On-Topic;

While I do not have an Index headset I do use Index controllers with my Vive Pro and they work great (almost 6 months now with those controllers without any problems). So, together with my Valve 2.0 base stations, I kinda feel part of the Index club, lol! I think that the Valve SteamVR tracking system is pretty hard to beat. Even better than my good old Rift cv1 (very recently retired) tracking with 2-3x sensors. Also better than my Oculus Q1 tracking ,which still works very well though and much better than my OG Vive Cosmos, lol!

9800x3d, rtx5090, X870E MB w/wifi7, 64Gb 6000 ram, 2x2TB SSD, 1000W PSU, Win 11pro, QPro, Q3, w/Link and Air Link, Vive Pro1 with 2x2.0 base stations, Etsy lens mod and Index Controllers

Zenbane

Honored Contributor

TomCgcmfc wrote:
Back to On-Topic;

While I do not have an Index headset I do use Index controllers with my Vive Pro and they work great (almost 6 months now with those controllers without any problems). So, together with my Valve 2.0 base stations, I kinda feel part of the Index club, lol! I think that the Valve SteamVR tracking system is pretty hard to beat. Even better than my good old Rift cv1 (very recently retired) tracking with 2-3x sensors. Also better than my Oculus Q1 tracking ,which still works very well though and much better than my OG Vive Cosmos, lol!

Thanks, Tom! Regarding tracking accuracy, I'm curious as to how you gauge which tracking technology is better or most accurate. I have not noticed any drawbacks to the Quest 2's tracking. For instance, I'm able to engage in Expert+ Beat Saber successfully with the Quest's inside out tracking. I've noticed zero issues compared to the times I performed the same movements with the Rift's external sensors.

Rinse and repeat for boxing, shooting, etc. Accuracy with Quest 2 is on par with everything else as far as I can tell. I do believe that, on paper, Lighthouse tracking is better when it comes to the specifications listed. However, I don't believe that any human can move fast enough to actually put those limitations to the test. I could be wrong though. Curious as to your approach, buddy. Cheers!

T

TomCgcmfc

Honored Contributor

Zenbane If you Google 'VR headset tracking comparisons' you can see a lot of technical mumbo-jumbo. I remember one (sorry but I cannot be bothered to find this again) that clearly showed that Valve lighthouse tracking response and accuracy was a bit better than anything else and my poor old OG Vive Cosmos was not surprisingly on the bottom of the heap, lol!

Oculus has done the absolute best with inside out tracking with their Quest and Rift S headsets. They are by far the Gold Standard and others kinda pale in comparison imho. However, there are obvious limitations (which I'm sure you are well aware of) with this compared to Valve 2x base station tracking. The main difference is area coverage wrt to where your controllers are placed. Quest and Rift S require these to be in sight of your headset cameras so too far away (or too close) and I see a few occasional jutters. Thanks to Oculus's prediction algorithms these come back in place very quickly. However, these also increase latency a bit and this has been shown by lab results I viewed a while ago.

Since I have actually used all these systems I think I can attest that the order of tracking based on my useage is in order best/worst; Valve lighthouse, Rift cv1, Rift S, Quest (1 and 2), WMR (my old Dell WMR), and lastly my poor old OG Vive Cosmos. Whether or not you agree with this or not I could does not concern me and I do not intent to spend any more time discussing this. The most important thing in VR is that you are happy with your results. If you think the Q2 is the best VR headset that's great. Certainly not worth Master-Debating imho. Maybe time to find another thread to debate more important issues mate. You have a lot to offer on this forum (and always have) but your input into this thread is not your best, and it has not been very helpful. imho. Time to move on my friend.

9800x3d, rtx5090, X870E MB w/wifi7, 64Gb 6000 ram, 2x2TB SSD, 1000W PSU, Win 11pro, QPro, Q3, w/Link and Air Link, Vive Pro1 with 2x2.0 base stations, Etsy lens mod and Index Controllers

O

OmegaM4N

Honored Contributor

Yeap, lighthouse tracking is best of the best, i mean you can even play in complete darkness, something you can't do with inside out tracking HMDs, hell even low light kills the 6DOF on inside out tracking, whereas on the vive and CV1 perfect 6DOF in the pitch dark while completely nude free from the restraints of conformity........did i day that last bit out loud. lol

CV1/Vive-knuckles)/Dell Vr Visor/Go/Quest II/ PSVR/PSVR 2.

Zenbane

Honored Contributor

OmegaM4N wrote:
Yeap, lighthouse tracking is best of the best, i mean you can even play in complete darkness, something you can't do with inside out tracking HMDs, hell even low light kills the 6DOF on inside out tracking

Lighthouse has its limitations as well:

Line of sight
Stationary
Multiple Users

Quest can be played outdoors, which is amazing for all the experiences that take advantage of Room-Scale as well as VR Sports:

https://vresports.com

Inside-Out tracking allows for multiple users without any drawbacks. In contrast, Lighthouse tracking faces issues with multiple users in that anyone blocking the tracking sensor for a base station will cause tracking problems for everyone else in that same space. This is a huge drawback for multiplayer experiences. Inside-Out tracking eliminates this problem entirely.

Lighthouse tracking does have great accuracy... as long as the goal is a single user in a stationary location. But this is far too limiting to enjoy the full breath of Virtual Reality.

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