Honored Contributor

Question

The Index thread (please keep to subject)

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As per the title, please respect the users who post here and keep it on topic, any nonsense and......grrr

Honored Contributor

Figured I better check if the Index is working perfectly before removing the drives from the old rig - and it did install perfectly.

120+ Hz in res 200% worked perfectly (Steam also suggested that I used 120 instead of 90 Hz, again I really don't think Index was meant for 90 Hz), but haven't tried to push anything much yet. Surely this will be a game changer compared to 90 Hz. Seems like the RTX 3090 is an awesome match for the Index, although the GTX 1080 also worked great in most games - but using 90 Hz.

One small advice when setting up Index for the first time - especially when the Index has been set up before and base stations are in sleep mode - make sure base stations are running before trying to install the Index.

When you start to install SteamVR on a new rig with sleeping base stations, then SteamVR can't find them nor wake them up. I had to go to one very dark corner of the world to unplug one (corner behind my desk) 😬. Also nice to get some cables untangled... I guess...

Unplugging og re-plugging base stations will fully activate them - so that's why they don't remember the sleep mode 😉 I'd be in big trouble if they did 😉

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

Zenbane

Honored Contributor

RuneSR2 wrote:
(Steam also suggested that I used 120 instead of 90 Hz, again I really don't think Index was meant for 90 Hz), but haven't tried to push anything much yet. Surely this will be a game changer compared to 90 Hz.

Quest 2 supports 120Hz as well. Although, 120Hz isn't actually "changing the game" for any HMD. It's just getting reports of "smoother" visuals in specific situations (e.g. like rapidly swinging your arms).

The real "game changer" for Valve will be when they release their new Inside-Out tracking HMD. Until then, the game will remain unchanged as the only advantage is somewhat nicer colors and slightly smoother transitions.

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TomCgcmfc

Honored Contributor

Zenbane I think that the PCVR mentality that higher refresh rates = better immersion is a little over rated, and maybe just something that Index users (and some reddit kiddies) like to brag about. I have recently tried my Q2 w/120Hz (native and wireless w/VD) and all this did for me was make it necessary to reduce PCVR graphics settings, increased my headset temps, and reduce battery runtimes. All this with a pretty high end pc (i9 9900k 5Ghz water cooled, rtx3090, 32Gb ram,....) and great router/wifi.

While I do 'see' improvements going from 60Hz with my Go to 72Hz with my Q1, and a bit more going to 80Hz with my Q2 and Rift S, I do not see much, if any, improvements with higher refresh rates. Like my 144Hz 1ms gaming monitor, I do not see any improvements above 100Hz. Maybe my old eyes make a difference, I don't know?

I also suspect that bragging about 130deg FOV (w/canted lens) might be a little over-stated. Otherwise we'd all be using 180-200deg 8K Pimax, lol! I certainly notice an improvement with my ~110 deg Vive Pro (with headset adjust close-in), but not really all that much in games/sims. The size of the sweet spot has much more of an effect to me. Likewise, sde, with higher SS, I do not notice much anymore. Certainly OLED does make a bit of a difference in some games/sims but the Q2's newer lcd's are pretty darn close imho.

Sorry to sound a little negative here mates. Probably about time I stopped posting and unsubscribed from this Index thread. Bye and Cheers.

9800x3d, rtx5090, X870E MB w/wifi7, 64Gb 6000 ram, 2x2TB SSD, 1000W PSU, Win 11pro, QPro, Q3, w/Link and Air Link, Vive Pro1 with 2x2.0 base stations, Etsy lens mod and Index Controllers

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

An new Alyx map Pyromantic Gatekeeper is getting a lot of attention - rated just below C17YSCAPE - does look great, might try it later:

More here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2431703917

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

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Anonymous

Even more goodness for Alyx, thanks for the heads up.

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

Btw, I noticed upon my fresh installation that brightness was set to 130. Originally brightness was 100 (when Index launched), but a few weeks after Alyx launched, Valve increased default brightness to 130. Probably to increase contrast and provide better blacks.

Still I've never been fond of 130, I prefer 100, maybe I used the hmd for too long with 100, lol. I do like the colors and even black levels better with the original brightness 100.

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

A

Anonymous

RuneSR2 wrote:
Btw, I noticed upon my fresh installation that brightness was set to 130. Originally brightness was 100 (when Index launched), but a few weeks after Alyx launched, Valve increased default brightness to 130. Probably to increase contrast and provide better blacks.
Still I've never been fond of 130, I prefer 100, maybe I used the hmd for too long with 100, lol. I do like the colors and even black levels better with the original brightness 100.

Odd my brightness is set to 100 on my Index by default.

Today marks 1 week since I got it, and have now charged the controllers for a third time. Getting good use out of it for sure. Still not crazy about having to stop play and then get them charged up but it is what it is. Everything else about it is so well designed.

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

Ok, interesting - I've had mine on 100 like forever, so that's why I noticed the 130 today - and remembered a SteamVR update about a year ago also increasing to 130. Maybe it's no big deal, could be something related to firmware etc.

And I do think brightness 100 is best for Alyx 🙂

Btw, following this discussion seems some hmds default to 130 while others are at 100 - probably only Valve knows why, lol:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/jivj8j/default_brightness_mine_is_at_130/

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

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pyroth309

Up and Coming

While I don't think the personal attack is necessary, I mostly agree with refresh rate.

I have 20/20 vision and use high refresh rate monitor for monitor gaming. At a minimum I'm on 120hz but I also have a 240hz monitor I use for FPS. I recently upgraded to a 240hz from a 144hz and I could tell the difference over my 144hz..but only under certain scenarios. Basically it has to be a game that has really fast movement in a short period of time. Something like CSGO where you're looking to shoot something a few pixels big that flashes on your screen. At 60hz it is so jerky by comparison that you're at a significant disadvantage in that scenario. You have to guess where it's going to leap to and your reaction time will be slower. That being said, there's diminishing returns. Even though I can see a difference, I'd wager my effective performance difference between 144hz and 240 is maybe 5%..or less. For a non pro gamer it's unnecessary to go above 144hz imo.

In VR, I just found things felt smoother at higher refresh. When I would slide my hands especially from left and right there was less jerky motion and it felt more continuous. For some competitive games this could be beneficial or like Beat Saber on Expert+.

For me, I'd take 72-90hz and push graphic fidelity any day over little more refresh for general gaming. I found it to be unnecessary in most games. Just causes you to have to reduce the graphics quality to gain a small amount of more continuous hand movement and a bit less blur on a rapid head swivel.

Also keep in mind that you have to actually be producing 144 or more fps to see benefit from 144z. Some may say but you can just turn on motion smoothing! And then you're running high frame times/input lag and kind of reducing the benefit. That's why I don't think it's worth the tradeoff in VR yet. Maybe when we have some 6090's lol.

As far as the Quest 2, I'm not convinced it benefits as much as a native PC headset refresh rate does after trying it. I don't know enough about it but I really don't notice much difference on mine between 120 and 90 either except it just burns through battery faster and I have to reduce settings to actually hit 120 fps. Add on the compression and all that and yea I'm not sure it's even worth using.

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TomCgcmfc

Honored Contributor

pyroth309 Ya, sorry about the cranky old fa*t moment. Edited that out now. Thanks for your Refreshing post, lol!

9800x3d, rtx5090, X870E MB w/wifi7, 64Gb 6000 ram, 2x2TB SSD, 1000W PSU, Win 11pro, QPro, Q3, w/Link and Air Link, Vive Pro1 with 2x2.0 base stations, Etsy lens mod and Index Controllers

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pyroth309

Up and Coming

On a slight offtopic, I went through Star Wars Squadrons again with my G2 yesterday. I started with my Quest 2 and it looked great but the fuzzyness of the distant lods was getting to me. Pulled out the G2 and I locked Motion smoothing to 45 and pushed it to 130% and I was again blown away by it. The space stations....especially the imperial side looked insane. The reflections on the floor looked so **bleep** good and the details in the distance became super sharp and crisp. No aliasing to be found. This impresses me way more than a little bit of smoothness from additional refresh rate. But different strokes.

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

Agreed, no doubt if we could get Index/Pimax fov + G2 res + 144 Hz it would be awesome (I'd like oled too), but it may take some years before a gpu able to handle that comes into existence - but sure, one day it'll be here. Maybe also the hmd too, lol.

Thus high panel res - and ultramersion textures (like 8k textures) - high poly count - realtime light & shadows - great fov - high refresh rates - perfect tracking - and great sound - are all keys for optimal immersion. Right now no VR solution ticks all boxes, but some tick a lot more than others.

Great thing is that today most may be able to get what they want (or can afford) - and get great VR experiences.

Btw, I've never put much faith into 240+ Hz monitors, I doubt lcd really is fast enough for that - maybe plasma or oled, which have much lower response times. But using Index you clearly do get 120 fps or 144 fps, it's not a marketing gimmick from Valve - although I too doubt that 240 fps/hz would matter much. In some old airplane pilot experiements, it seems 200 fps is close to the max:

"The USAF, in testing their pilots for visual response time, used a simple test to see if the pilots could distinguish small changes in light. In their experiment a picture of an aircraft was flashed on a screen in a dark room at 1/220th of a second. Pilots were consistently able to "see" the afterimage as well as identify the aircraft. This simple and specific situation not only proves the ability to percieve 1 image within 1/220 of a second, but the ability to interpret higher FPS."
http://amo.net/NT/05-24-01FPS.html

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

Zenbane

Honored Contributor

RuneSR2 wrote:
Thus high panel res - and ultramersion textures (like 8k textures) - high poly count - realtime light & shadows - great fov - high refresh rates - perfect tracking - and great sound - are all keys for optimal immersion.

That is all pure fiction. Ultramersion isn't a thing, and the items you listed completely butcher the concept of VR immersion.

What you described is one thing only: all keys to appease a video game videophile. Nothing more.

A player can become immersed in a pitch black room in VR. Where textures, poly count, lighting, shadows, FOV, and refresh rate are rendered irrelevant. Yet immersion can be very, very real. For example, pitch black rooms create some fairly horrifying experiences in VR. Especially if you add some creepy music or whispering.

It's perfectly fine to enjoy playing your video games with the best graphics, but don't let your personal preferences confuse the science behind VR itself.

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pyroth309

Up and Coming

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

Seems the devs are quite active for the moment - new vid again does look great:

This was one game where I didn't like lcd - texture res is acceptable, but not great with the Index. Instead this game profits a lot from the CV1 SDE to provide some makeup and hide the flaws. I'd say 6/10 rating with the Index and 8/10 with CV1. 2c.

Btw, riding a horse was fun.

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

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pyroth309

Up and Coming

I picked up Tales of Glory in summer of 2019 and never tried it. It was buggy and kinda barren back then so I was waiting for some improvements before I gave it a go. I know they moved their main development on to the sequel which with modern weapons instead of Medieval. I'll have to give it a try now that it's had some time to develop.

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

Hmmm, not much left on the list that I don't already own - maybe Skyworld

Already have BoxVR, Job Simulator, Vacation Simulator, Fruit Ninja, Pistol Whip, Shadow Legend, Windlands 2, Trover, Moss and SuperHot - but bought in the Oculus Store.

Valve has made a nice page here showing games and apps with native Index support:

https://store.steampowered.com/sale/valve_index_featured_games/

This is maybe an even better list of Knuckles (finger tracking) supported games:

https://store.steampowered.com/curator/36314999-Index-Controller-Compatibility/

https://store.steampowered.com/curator/36314999-Index-Controller-Compatibility/list/52689

Maybe time to try some Audica...

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

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OmegaM4N

Honored Contributor

Yeah i did not need the full kit, only the hMD and knuckles, and only the knuckles were avalible for pre-order at the time, but i still use my Vive so i will enjoy the controller upgrade with them until the Index itself apears. 🙂

I have been back on the vive of late and i just realised it is the only HMD i own that i can use without wearing glasses and still everything is sharp and clear, and i think that might be somewhat of a postive for the SDE on the Vive which sees to make everything more defined and sharper overal. 🙂

CV1/Vive-knuckles)/Dell Vr Visor/Go/Quest II/ PSVR/PSVR 2.

A

Anonymous

I guess I got lucky getting my Index kit so fast. Have already logged many hours in it the last nine days and finally getting better acclimated with the controllers. Starting to feel more natural now in Alyx.

Guess I will get back to some DCS Hornet campaign flying tomorrow, which means the Reverb G2 for it. One thing I found nice, is Steam VR does a pretty good job keeping the settings separate between the two devices so I am not having to go in and reset all of them each time I switch headsets.

Meantime back to Alyx - am in Revelation chapter and those pesky ant lions are really starting to piss me off.

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

Might take a trip to City 17 later tonight too.

Btw, not sure if we discussed this before, but are you aware that Alyx overrides all SteamVR res settings and constantly auto-adjusts res to fit the fps? The dynamic auto-scaling may be deactivated, but it's complicated, more here:

https://petrakeas.medium.com/half-life-alyx-performance-analysis-or-why-low-graphic-settings-produce-a-sharper-image-4d17fb8c19bb

- and:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/908520/discussions/0/2149847049317905829/#c2144217924389943276

Thus setting SteamVR to res 200% has no effect in Alyx.

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

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Anonymous

Yeah I had read where you talked about before.

Whatever it does is fine, I am quite happy with the graphics I get. I have not seen a single stutter yet.

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