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The Index thread (please keep to subject)

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As per the title, please respect the users who post here and keep it on topic, any nonsense and......grrr

Honored Contributor

^^Yeah, i did love the massive FOV of the Index, but i just can't deal with a LCD panel in a VR HMD, maybe if i had only ever used a LCD it would not be such a big issue, but moving from the Oled of the Cv1, Vive and PSVR to the Index, Quest II and Dell VR Visor always looked quite clearly to be a step back visually, and oled is just too perfect a display for VR, whereas LCD is what it is, a cheap flat panel that was developed to be just that, to bring the cost of large flat screens way down, and it worked, but it fails big time when shoved into a VR HMD, just awful, but thankfully Sony are going the quality route so we are sorted there, and i have been building up my VR PSN collection for its release, so can't wait. 🙂

Merry xmas to all.

CV1/Vive-knuckles)/Dell Vr Visor/Go/Quest II/ PSVR/PSVR 2.

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

Maybe a nice and fair comparison of Index vs. Vive Pro 2 - it's a long read:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/rvgelj/valve_index_vs_vive_pro_2_impressions/

Or jump to the conclusion 😉

"Bottom Line

And I think that's really what it boils down to: the Pro 2 is the way to go if you want the absolute best visual experience, regardless of the greater price or the lesser user experience. Otherwise, I still think the Valve Index is the best kit for most people.

If, like me, you're an Index user approaching the Pro 2 as a possible upgrade, I'd approach with some skepticism. Get your hands on one if possible so you can really decide if the value is there (or order from a return-friendly retailer). At full, retail price, though, I'm not so sure that it is."

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

A

Anonymous

IMHO the Vive Pro 2 is a pretty nice upgrade for the Index owner especially as they will already have the tracking system. This is just from my personal experience.

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

So the great secret about the Quest 2 streaming is that it's not free but quite taxing for the rig. I just asked one Index user - who also has the Quest 2 - to compare similar res and performances using the OpenVR Benchmark. Here are the fresh results:

Quest 2 res 2032x2032 (4.1 mill pixels)

Index res 2016x2240 (=4.5 mill pixels)

Not only is the Index pushing 10% more pixes, but the performance is a massive 30% faster!

So streaming eats up a massive 30% of your performance - I'd have a very hard time accepting that. And remember the Index is pushing 10% higher res here - so Quest 2 streaming may cost you little more than 30% performance. And then you may get bad image quality by compression artifacts.

If my Rift CV1 wasn't working, I'd get a Rift-S before wasting 30% gpu power on the Quest 2 streaming. 2c. Taking 30% off my RTX 3090 would put give me about similar performance as a RTX 3070 Ti - that's something to consider, because a RTX 3090 is *much* more expensive compared to a RTX 3070 Ti 😉

To phrase it in another way: in SteamVR apps, users of Index + RTX 3070 Ti may get similar performance as users of Quest 2 + RTX 3090.

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

A

Anonymous

No doubt for PC-VR a display port cable plugged directly into GPU will always yield a little better performance over the image being compressed/uncompressed through a USB Port. That is why for my flight sims I definitely will always prefer the direct display port on GPU connection for performance reasons due to how demanding they can be. But yeah Oculus did a pretty good job with their Link and Air connection. All the Quest 2 Steam VR users would be a testament to that I reckon.

I wonder what Cambria will have? Might they return to providing a direct display port connection with it?

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

I don't think that casual Quest 2 users have any clue about the true costs of streaming, and that goes for many enthusiasts too - they probably just play their games being clueless about a RTX 2060 suddenly performing like a GTX 1660 on a non-streaming hmd, lol.

To see the streaming impact you have to directly compare same Hz and same res on Quest 2 and a non-streaming hmd, and few are able to do that - or have any clue how to perform a VR benchmark.

Some on Reddit mentioned a 40% performance impact going from Rift-S to Quest 2, but were just comparing game performance, and then I'm not sure we're comparing similar res and Hz.

Maybe some think that 30% performance drop is a small price to pay for streaming - but it's an utterly gigantic price to pay. It means that Quest 2 + RTX 3090 users may get similar performance as Index/Rift-S 3070 Ti users.

Over here the cheapest in-stock RTX 3090 costs $1,500 more than a RTX 3070 Ti - so cheap headsets using streaming may have giant hidden costs 😉 Even a small 10% streaming performance impact would be totally unacceptable with the extreme gpu prices we're experiencing today. A RTX 3090 is only 15-20% faster than a RTX 3080, so 30% streaming impact is severe or worse.

In short, an Index + RTX 3070 Ti may be a cheaper solution in total and provide same performance compared to Quest 2 + RTX 3090. That's something quite mindblowing to think about! 😉

Streaming is totally unacceptable if there's any performance impact - with these results Cambria may be completely stillborn to me with no direct DisplayPort connection.

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

nalex66

Honored Contributor

I saw this post earlier, and the benchmark results struck me as a bit suspect, so I spent some time this afternoon and did my own comparison between my Rift CV1 and my Quest 2. Obviously performance will differ depending on the PC hardware, but my benchmarks showed a performance overhead for the Quest 2 ranging from 2% to 7%, with less difference at higher resolutions. So as not to derail this thread with non-Index content, I've posted my full benchmark results in their own thread.

DK2, CV1, Go, Quest, Quest 2, Quest 3. Try my game: Cyclops Island Demo

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

That is interesting - still hard to explain why the dude with the RTX 2060 Super is getting 30% better performance with the Index (and his results are normal compared to similar results in the OpenVR database for both Quest 2 and Index). But awesome to get more info, thanks for the great job, testing is indeed time consuming - another difference is of course that the Index is using native Steam drivers, while the Oculus hmds are not.

Or maybe streaming takes a bigger toll for weaker gpus - the RTX 2060 Super is much slower than the 3080 Ti. @Pyroth earlier mentioned experiencing performance drops using Quest 2 - but to compare apples to apples we need results using similar res and Hz.

You need to buy an Index, Nalex, even Ryan has one! 😉

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

Zenbane

Honored Contributor

RuneSR2 wrote:

Or maybe streaming takes a bigger toll for weaker gpus - the RTX 2060 Super is much slower than the 3080 Ti. @Pyroth earlier mentioned experiencing performance drops using Quest 2 - but to compare apples to apples we need results using similar res and Hz.

Well no, because earlier you were trying to use the one reddit example to draw an across-the-board conclusion about Quest overall. You even went as far as to predict that this one example would be reflected on future products (e.g. Cambria).

So nobody has to compare Apples to Apples in order to refute the across-the-board conclusion you were trying to draw. Simply put, you presented that one example as proof that Quest is taking a 30% performance hit overall. Yet clearly, thanks to nalex's first hand experience and first hand benchmarking (as opposed to stealing a reddit post), we can see that a 30% performance hit overall is pure fiction.

Surely when anyone goes through varying scenarios, then benchmarks will vary too. But at least we now have correct information that we can in fact use Quest 2 and have something very close (6-7% performance difference) to native PCVR.

And that gap will only get smaller with each Meta headset.

You should buy a Quest 2, Rune, so that you don't have to Google comparisons and rely on second hand information that may be misleading. 😊

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

Great thanks to Nalex for confirming the extremely poor Quest 2 benchmark results - although these may not be primarily explained by the streaming performance impact. Maybe better to repeat parts of another post here, as it is relevant to two threads:

Nalex is using a RTX 3080 Ti, and I'm using a RTX 3090, which are similar gpus with similar performances - but using similar res in the OpenVR Benchmark I got a massive 41 % better performance with the Index than Nalex has with the Quest 2 - so the difference is even bigger than 30 % better Index vs. Quest 2 performance with the RTX 2060 Super:

Quest 2 - RTX 3080 Ti - res 2092 x 2116 = 4.4 mill pixels

Index - RTX 3090 - res 2016 x 2240 = 4.5 mill pixels

Thus the difference here is a totally massive 41 % ! If we compare the 1% Low results, which typically are the most annoying performance reductions (=provide the most annoying stuttering), Index is 44% faster - that's close to a massive 50% performance difference!

My cpu does have a lot more cores, but this test is normally greatly dependent on the gpu, not the cpu (and Nalex showed testing the CV1 that his cpu is capable of calculating at least 105 fps in OpenVR Benchmark). Also note that refresh rate does not seem to matter much in the OpenVR test - these are other Index results:

With a res of 4.5 mill pixels like the Index, it's normal for at RTX 3090 to get about 80 fps (75 - 85 fps).

Getting 57 fps with Quest 2 using 4.4 mill pixels res with a RTX 3080 Ti is similar performance as Index with an old RTX 2080 Ti. 57 fps would be catastrophic results meaning you've paid many $$$ for a high-end RTX 3080 Ti but you only get RTX 2080 Ti performance.

Thus the real questions here - why is the Quest 2 performing so poorly? Is it a driver problem? Did Valve limit performance? Are Index drivers really that awesome?

For now I'm with @kojack's explanation here: "The thing to remember with an Index vs Quest 2 comparison in an OpenVR benchmark is that the Index is running natively in OpenVR, while the Quest 2 is being forced through an OpenVR to Oculus wrapper written by Valve."

Could seem that Steam is another kind of walled garden, not treating guests the same way as family 🤔 Note that the HTC Vive Pro performs similar to the Index (both use native Steam drivers - but I don't think that goes for the Vive Pro 2!), so I never thought other hmds would be much different - unfortunately that does not seem to be the case. This is the Vive Pro also using 2016x2240 res and a RTX 3090:

In short, 57 fps with similar res using a RTX 3080 Ti and Quest 2 is extremely poor performance - and I don't know who's to blame for that.

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

nalex66

Honored Contributor

Just to note a couple thing—I ran the same benchmark with my Rift, and got the exact same result, so this isn’t a Quest 2 issue, it’s an issue with non-SteamVR headsets using this benchmark tool (or perhaps an issue with SteamVR in general).

Also, kojack ran a comparative benchmark between his G2 and Quest 2, and got very similar results between them—his Quest 2 did not suffer any significant performance loss due to streaming, and performed as well as his G2 through SteamVR.

I would suggest you run the benchmark on your Rift to see how it compares to your Index result. Your 30/41/44/50% comparisons are not meaningful in discussing the difference between streaming PCVR and native PC-only headsets. If we can make any conclusions from these results, it’s that SteamVR should be avoided for anyone using a headset other than Index.

DK2, CV1, Go, Quest, Quest 2, Quest 3. Try my game: Cyclops Island Demo

A

Anonymous

nalex66 wrote:
If we can make any conclusions from these results, it’s that SteamVR should be avoided for anyone using a headset other than Index.

Odd I seem to be running Steam VR quite well with Reverb G2 and Vive Pro 2. In fact I prefer the Vive Pro 2 over the Index. And this with some fairly complex flight sims.

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

Btw, took some shots using Index res 200% of the Resident Evil 2 VR Mod - also posted most of the images in here, but added a few very gory shots to the Reddit images (the last 2 images):

https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/ryh7pk/the_good_the_bad_and_the_truly_gruesome_faces_of/

The mod is extremely hardware demanding - I'm often down to 45 fps, so here every drop of performance counts, works only with Steam drivers (I think). The game looks even better using Index res 300%, but it's often like 30 fps - the good news is that these mods may be even better when the RTX 4090, 5090 - or 6090 arrive! 😄

There're many good comments on Reddit if some need help etc. with the mods. Big fov and awesome sound make this game shine with the Index - Knuckles work fine too. I would not recommend the mod for anybody using less than a RTX 3060 though, maybe even a 3080 - based on my experiences with the Index.

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

Zenbane

Honored Contributor

RuneSR2 wrote:
I would not recommend the mod for anybody using less than a RTX 3060 though, maybe even a 3080 - based on my experiences with the Index.

Nah, there are YouTubers showcasing RE 2 VR Mod with a Quest 2 and a lower gen GPU, and are doing just fine. We must keep in mind that many VR enthusiasts are happy to scale down the graphic settings a bit in order to enjoy a great immersive experience. High-end graphics do very little to enhance VR immersion.

Just for reference I captured this Resident Evil 2 VR gameplay using Oculus mirror & OBS so the performance/video representation has taken a slight hit, visuals inside the headset were much cleaner, crisper & framerates more stable than what the video shows on occassion. The Resident Evil 2 Remake VR mod is quite performance intensive however and to capture this I dropped most graphics settings to low or medium, without OBS/mirror running I'd happily scale things back up, my PC setup is as follows: RTX 2080, i7 9700k, 32GB DDR4 RAM, Windows 10 & using an Oculus Quest 2 with PC link cable.

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

Deadness arrives February 22, and looks totally awesome - and according to the devs the game only supports Index and Vive - so no support for Oculus or WMR hmds:

The game is here: https://store.steampowered.com/app/951570/Deadness/

I'm really not fond of VR horror, and this looks like one of the most terrifying VR horror games I've ever seen. I still have not finished Affected the Manor - because as some clever android once stated 😂

Recommended system requirements are quite high, but awesome graphics and dynamic shadows never were free:

RECOMMENDED:

OS: Windows 7 and newer
Processor: Intel Core i7
Memory: 16 GB RAM
Graphics: Nvidia GeForce 2070 8GB / AMD Radeon RX 5700
DirectX: Version 11
Storage: 10 GB available space

GMW3 (=VR Focus) just published a short article about the game:

https://www.gmw3.com/2022/02/deadness-brings-february-chills-to-pc-vr/

According to the devs there are no plans about supporting anything but Vive and Index at launch:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/951570/discussions/0/3198119849650880839/

Some shots, click to enlarge:

Check out the very detailed shadow

The pre-alpha trailer from 2019 already looked quite advanced, my guess is that this game has been in development for 4-5 years.

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

kojack

Honored Contributor

RuneSR2 wrote:

According to the devs there are no plans about supporting anything but Vive and Index at launch:

Here's what they really say:

"Hi, we are planning to release the game supporting Vive and Valve index"

There's a BIG difference between saying the game is releasing with Vive and Index support and saying there are no plans to support others in the future.

Go to the actual official web page for the game where it shows this:

The game's news feed on the official web page says: "Therefore the game should be played on VR set that use external sensors (base stations): HTC VIVE, VIVE PRO / PRO 2, COSMO ELITE and OCULUS RIFT."

The first trailer for the game has this at the end:

The game might launch with no Oculus support, but if they had no plans for Oculus then they shouldn't keep using Oculus in their marketing. 🙂

It does look cool.

I still want to make a VR game where the mechanic is you are on an office chair and have to move around on it with procedural animation for legs.

Author: Oculus Monitor , Auto Oculus Touch , Forum Dark Mode , Phantom Touch Remover , X-Plane Fixer. Headsets: Wrap 1200VR, DK1, DK2, CV1, Rift-S, GearVR, Go, Quest, Quest 2, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Steam Frame, Tilt Five.

Zenbane

Honored Contributor

kojack wrote:
RuneSR2 wrote:
According to the devs there are no plans about supporting anything but Vive and Index at launch:
The game might launch with no Oculus support, but if they had no plans for Oculus then they shouldn't keep using Oculus in their marketing. 🙂

Yeah, the Devs would be shooting themselves in the foot if they avoided Oculus support. There simply aren't enough Index owners to gain any sort of meaningful ROI. The only way Index exclusive titles can reap a positive ROI is "if" the VR App itself had a minimal investment up front (e.g. low effort to build a mediocre product).

The closer a dev comes to making a AAA caliber experience, the more time, money, and resources they spend up front. Targeting Index-only would be a recipe for financial loss.

T

Transitions

New Participant

Anybody know if Oculus have a formal complaints procedure?

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

New Deadness trailer has arrived - at launch only hmds with external tracking using base stations are supported - like Index and Vive (Pro) - not sure about Varjo Aero...

I've asked if the devs cannot support the Rift CV1, the Rift CV1 should be perfect too for this game.

Seems that because you sit in a wheelchair, your hands may be out of sight relative to the hmd, thus devs say external tracking is needed - but they are working on supporting hmds with inside-out tracking.

The game is here: https://store.steampowered.com/app/951570/Deadness/

EDIT - the official launch trailer just arrived - I just bought the game, not sure I have to nerves to play it, lol:

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

RuneSR2

Honored Contributor

Interstingly, nearly 90% of the Deadness ratings on Steam are positive. I'm actually one of the few providing a negative rating. This is not because the game is boring and uninteresting - it's not - shadows and light are great too. But I have severe issues with lcd in this game - and I'm not going to recommend a game to all Steam users, which needs a RTX 3080 or better for just 90 fps. The game has no settings for graphics, only thing you can do is setting the SteamVR res outside of the game.

This game needs oled - I've asked the devs to support the CV1, and they agreed and are now working on supporting native Oculus drivers. For now my review on Steam reads:

"This game suffers from severe lack of optimization - I'm using an oc'ed RTX 3090 and the Index. While I do get perfect 90 fps using res 100%, already at res 130% I dip below 90 fps. You need a RTX 3080 or better as the bare minimum for this game - and don't even think about 120+ fps.
The game is made for oled, it really does not work with lcd. With lcd you get the dreaded grayish soup of shimmering blurry semi-darkness. If there was one VR game really needing oled, congrats - you just found it.
Graphics aren't great using res 100%, but the atmosphere is awesome - really dark, sound is awesome too. If you have an Index, lower brightness to 70%, but you still need oled.

If you have a Vive (Pro - not Pro 2), and at least a RTX 3080, maybe this game is for you - the rest should not bother.

Driving the wheelchair, you do spend much time with your hands on your back - I firmly believe you need external tracking for this game - at least in its current state.

Btw, devs MUST support Rift CV1 - it's oled and has external tracking. Support the game with native Oculus drivers for the CV1, and I'll change this review to positive. I'm sad having to give a negative review, but very few VR users will be able to enjoy the game as it is. Note that minimum system requirements should state what you need for solid 90 fps - not for 30 fps 😉

My rig: Asus Strix OC RTX 3090, i9 10900K (10 cores, 20 threads, 5.3 Ghz) and 32 GB 3200 Mhz - running the game from a Samsung 4TB SSD."

I took 3 screenshots from the game - just to show the deep darkness and why I really find lcd totally unacceptable for the game:

The game simply does not look "right" with lcd - lowering brightness with lcd helps, but still is far from great. I really need CV1 support or the game will be close to dead to me - maybe that's why it's called Deadness, lol 🤔 😄

The game is truly disturbing, so you're in a wheelchair with your hands on your back while staring at things in front of you (to move forward, you grab the wheels on your back and move them forward to your waist). Of course you can look down to see your hands and the wheelchair - but this is a terrifying game, you'll want to look forward and be alert while not looking at your hands. The game cannot be played in a couch - you need a chair with no armrests. Immersion is great - I think this game would be really awesome with oled and some SDE. Not going to play before CV1 works. Due to massive performance problems, the game needs native Oculus drivers - not SteamVR drivers. I did try to start the game wearing the CV1, both using the game's desktop icon and the start button in my Steam library - but SteamVR constantly started, so no support for native Oculus drivers yet.

Oculus Rift CV1, Valve Index & PSVR2, Asus Strix OC RTX™ 3090, i9-10900K (5.3Ghz), 32GB 3200MHz, 16TB SSD "Ask not what VR can do for you, but what you can do for VR"

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